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Question for Astrononerds
page: 2share:
a reply to: Akragon
That's what I can't wrap my head around: there's never anything absolute in the universe. I thought a little further about and got a brain cramp trying to imagine what a reference point outside the universe would look like. It wouldn't even make a difference, would it? Outside we'd just see the universe also moving and it would just get more complicated...
Crazy stuff
Also:
source
So the expansion is faster but to see ourselves wouldn't really violate 'information propagation' because all past is already contained in our system, no?
...I mean in theory...
That's what I can't wrap my head around: there's never anything absolute in the universe. I thought a little further about and got a brain cramp trying to imagine what a reference point outside the universe would look like. It wouldn't even make a difference, would it? Outside we'd just see the universe also moving and it would just get more complicated...
Crazy stuff
Also:
between expansion that is faster than the speed of light and the propagation of information that is faster than the speed of light. The latter is forbidden by fundamental physical laws, but the former is allowed
source
So the expansion is faster but to see ourselves wouldn't really violate 'information propagation' because all past is already contained in our system, no?
...I mean in theory...
edit on 18-12-2022 by Peeple because: add
a reply to: Peeple
You can’t measure something that doesn’t exist, hence your brain cramps.
Velocity needs two values, both time and distance within 3D space to calculate. Outside of our universe our equations are useless as we can’t measure either time or distance to that location. Moving faster than the speed of light would result in either distance or time becoming negative, which from my understanding is impossible. There is of course quantum entanglement experiments which seem to refute the standard model limitations but good luck trying to explain that phenomenon.
You can’t measure something that doesn’t exist, hence your brain cramps.
Velocity needs two values, both time and distance within 3D space to calculate. Outside of our universe our equations are useless as we can’t measure either time or distance to that location. Moving faster than the speed of light would result in either distance or time becoming negative, which from my understanding is impossible. There is of course quantum entanglement experiments which seem to refute the standard model limitations but good luck trying to explain that phenomenon.
edit on 18/12/22 by Grenade because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Grenade
Well that wouldn't make it impossible, in my naive interpretation, it would just confirm that we could only see Milky Way in the past and that we might have to look in the 'opposite' direction of where we'd expect it.
'Outside' isn't even necessary.
I was just thinking about it to see if there's a simplification from that point of view.
would result in either distance or time becoming negative
Well that wouldn't make it impossible, in my naive interpretation, it would just confirm that we could only see Milky Way in the past and that we might have to look in the 'opposite' direction of where we'd expect it.
'Outside' isn't even necessary.
I was just thinking about it to see if there's a simplification from that point of view.
edit on 18-12-2022 by Peeple because: add
a reply to: Peeple
But when you look in the opposite direction, you are looking at where it was in the past and not where it is now. You can only see now and calculate where it was in the past and where it will be in the future based on the measured speed and direction.
Can you look at where a train has been and see it there in the past?
Time is the property of the universe that keeps everything from happening at the same instant. Space is the property of the universe that keeps all things from being one big lump of super dense nothing.
When it is said you are seeing where stars and galaxies were when the light left them, it is just the time it takes for the light to be seen from that distance that makes it where they were then and not where they are now.
Is that simple enough to help you nderstand?
But when you look in the opposite direction, you are looking at where it was in the past and not where it is now. You can only see now and calculate where it was in the past and where it will be in the future based on the measured speed and direction.
Can you look at where a train has been and see it there in the past?
Time is the property of the universe that keeps everything from happening at the same instant. Space is the property of the universe that keeps all things from being one big lump of super dense nothing.
When it is said you are seeing where stars and galaxies were when the light left them, it is just the time it takes for the light to be seen from that distance that makes it where they were then and not where they are now.
Is that simple enough to help you nderstand?
edit on 12 18 2022 by beyondknowledge because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Peeple
So the expansion is faster but to see ourselves wouldn't really violate 'information propagation' because all past is already contained in our system, no?
...I mean in theory...
Space, as in the void, the vacum, is the medium where light propagates through. So if you stretch out the medium, the universe, even if it happens faster than light, the light propagating through the medium, is not traveling faster than light from the universes reference point.
Think about the space being stretched out like a latex sheet and light being a bug, while the sheet stretches out, the bugs feet still cover the same distance than before, since the bug itself is part of the medium and therefor, stretched too.
If I am not completely wrong, this is what the red shift is all about.
a reply to: beyondknowledge
Additional to that, even if we could travel at a speed greater than lightspeed, to go back to where Earth was yesterday, we would still need to catch up on the photons traveling away at light speed, pass them, slow down to observe them.
The interesting thing about this is, no matter what actual direction we choose, we could always see the past photons but it's not that easy since Earth spins around it's axis and spirals together with the solar system (and every other higher up layer) so the distribution pattern would be hard to calculate and one could only see glimpses along a curve.
Because the photons would spread like similar to what a rotating garden hose would do to water.
Additional to that, even if we could travel at a speed greater than lightspeed, to go back to where Earth was yesterday, we would still need to catch up on the photons traveling away at light speed, pass them, slow down to observe them.
The interesting thing about this is, no matter what actual direction we choose, we could always see the past photons but it's not that easy since Earth spins around it's axis and spirals together with the solar system (and every other higher up layer) so the distribution pattern would be hard to calculate and one could only see glimpses along a curve.
Because the photons would spread like similar to what a rotating garden hose would do to water.
a reply to: TDDAgain
Under the every action has a reaction rule , Is light actually pushing anything in front of it or around it , Is light a fuel and responsible for expansion of the universe since it doesn't have a forward direction is the Universe traveling or is it a stationary container it would have to be like a balloon expanding in all directions - If that is the case the Universe it's self would have to be in some kinda container to expand in .
Complicated question not sure I ask it right lol
Under the every action has a reaction rule , Is light actually pushing anything in front of it or around it , Is light a fuel and responsible for expansion of the universe since it doesn't have a forward direction is the Universe traveling or is it a stationary container it would have to be like a balloon expanding in all directions - If that is the case the Universe it's self would have to be in some kinda container to expand in .
Complicated question not sure I ask it right lol
a reply to: TheLieWeLive
I am not an expert on the topic but I internally keep myself busy with questions about infinity, space and time on a regular basis.
Your assumption is not far off. Just a little detail worth mentioning: Traveling back in time in the term it is mostly used, includes traveling space too. If you think about time, what is it really?
For me time is the propagation of physical laws. If you think about it, the physical laws are executed and the granularity of time, to lowest fraction you could measure, would be what is happening in between two states that are altered due to a physical law. Then quantum realm takes ahold, since quantum realm does not, from my little understanding, adhere to time in the traditional sense.
So if we think about a stationary time machine, that brings you exactly back to the time you want to go, your body would have to travel in a sort of wormhole. Not sure what the medium of time is but your body also needs to aquire all the properties that would make it not explode on the walls of the time machine.
Because the momentum into all three dimensions, just one small example, would need to be adjusted too. Not sure if something like this is even possible. In fact it would be like teleportation and teleportation could only happen through the quantum realm AFAWK and that means basically information sent to somewhere and turned to matter again. The opposite what a blackhole does, since it converts matter to energy partly.
I rather believe in time travel to the future, as in, taking a spacecraft and traveling at the speed of light to alter one's own rate of aging and travel that way for let's say 100 years Earth reference time but it would only feel like let's say 100 minutes.
I am not an expert on the topic but I internally keep myself busy with questions about infinity, space and time on a regular basis.
Your assumption is not far off. Just a little detail worth mentioning: Traveling back in time in the term it is mostly used, includes traveling space too. If you think about time, what is it really?
For me time is the propagation of physical laws. If you think about it, the physical laws are executed and the granularity of time, to lowest fraction you could measure, would be what is happening in between two states that are altered due to a physical law. Then quantum realm takes ahold, since quantum realm does not, from my little understanding, adhere to time in the traditional sense.
So if we think about a stationary time machine, that brings you exactly back to the time you want to go, your body would have to travel in a sort of wormhole. Not sure what the medium of time is but your body also needs to aquire all the properties that would make it not explode on the walls of the time machine.
Because the momentum into all three dimensions, just one small example, would need to be adjusted too. Not sure if something like this is even possible. In fact it would be like teleportation and teleportation could only happen through the quantum realm AFAWK and that means basically information sent to somewhere and turned to matter again. The opposite what a blackhole does, since it converts matter to energy partly.
I rather believe in time travel to the future, as in, taking a spacecraft and traveling at the speed of light to alter one's own rate of aging and travel that way for let's say 100 years Earth reference time but it would only feel like let's say 100 minutes.
a reply to: Ravenwatcher
Again I am not an expert but yes, light, photons, do exert momentum on anything they hit. That's why you can not photograph stuff like electrons or even atoms in a reliable manner, because the photons you use to measure / photograph, will alter the atom in some ways.
This dives a bit into Heisenberg's uncertainty relationship theory.
My personal theory on why the universe expands is that, and that's where your container idea correlates with mine is this:
Black holes. Black holes, we already know that gravity can bend space and that gravity also alters time. I know that black holes are not literally holes but according to different theories, the mass is mostly conserved. But we can not prove that, we only think they do, because they alter space-time and it exerts gravity on objects, a very strong pull. So we conclude that the mass is there.
What if the mass is not there and what isn't converted to energy and spit out as EM waves actually feeds the ongoing process of expansion? Think the universe as a bubble inside a bubble. The second bubble is your container theory. So black holes could be the entry door to that outer bubble, being responsible for it's expansion and therefor, pulling the inner bubble apart, stretching it.
Now it becomes complicated because we think in 3D and according to Carl Sagan's (♥) demonstration on a 3D cube with light, showed a cube inside a cube, a tesseract. The 4D version of a cube is not an extension like from 2D to 3D but rather inside the 3D space, sort of.
So if you ask yourself what borders this second bubble, your container, the answer might be: nothing. Even with a multiverse theory, it could be all multiverse are occupying either the same space or domain, as in, not bordering but within.
This also neatly eyeballs with as below, so above. Atoms, solar systems, galaxies and so forth.
Add: I forgot to add about my theory... So I think what happened in the big bang was the outer container being filled to a point (through black holes) that the equilibrium between the forces holding both against each other became so uneven, it imploded/snapped back and then again, gave us the big bang. So I think the universe is actually cycling through expansion and imploding infinite. But I am also not sure on the infinite part, because intuitive, it would have to find equilibrium on itself.
But then, all of what I wrote is just intuitive thinking with the little science I know. Phage probably is chewing finger nails now.
Again I am not an expert but yes, light, photons, do exert momentum on anything they hit. That's why you can not photograph stuff like electrons or even atoms in a reliable manner, because the photons you use to measure / photograph, will alter the atom in some ways.
This dives a bit into Heisenberg's uncertainty relationship theory.
My personal theory on why the universe expands is that, and that's where your container idea correlates with mine is this:
Black holes. Black holes, we already know that gravity can bend space and that gravity also alters time. I know that black holes are not literally holes but according to different theories, the mass is mostly conserved. But we can not prove that, we only think they do, because they alter space-time and it exerts gravity on objects, a very strong pull. So we conclude that the mass is there.
What if the mass is not there and what isn't converted to energy and spit out as EM waves actually feeds the ongoing process of expansion? Think the universe as a bubble inside a bubble. The second bubble is your container theory. So black holes could be the entry door to that outer bubble, being responsible for it's expansion and therefor, pulling the inner bubble apart, stretching it.
Now it becomes complicated because we think in 3D and according to Carl Sagan's (♥) demonstration on a 3D cube with light, showed a cube inside a cube, a tesseract. The 4D version of a cube is not an extension like from 2D to 3D but rather inside the 3D space, sort of.
So if you ask yourself what borders this second bubble, your container, the answer might be: nothing. Even with a multiverse theory, it could be all multiverse are occupying either the same space or domain, as in, not bordering but within.
This also neatly eyeballs with as below, so above. Atoms, solar systems, galaxies and so forth.
Add: I forgot to add about my theory... So I think what happened in the big bang was the outer container being filled to a point (through black holes) that the equilibrium between the forces holding both against each other became so uneven, it imploded/snapped back and then again, gave us the big bang. So I think the universe is actually cycling through expansion and imploding infinite. But I am also not sure on the infinite part, because intuitive, it would have to find equilibrium on itself.
But then, all of what I wrote is just intuitive thinking with the little science I know. Phage probably is chewing finger nails now.
edit on
18.12.2022 by TDDAgain because: (no reason given)
a reply to: TDDAgain
You will probably find this article interesting and a few research rabbit holes to burrow down.
Big Bang Theory Flaws
Also.
JWT - Doubt cast on current Big Bang Theory
You will probably find this article interesting and a few research rabbit holes to burrow down.
Big Bang Theory Flaws
Also.
JWT - Doubt cast on current Big Bang Theory
a reply to: TDDAgain
Interesting Black Holes could be our release valves so our galaxy doesn't explode also I like your theory that light has force if it is true to see the very beginning go to the edge of light those particles should be from the beginning kinda like a glacier ...
Yet the past should be all around us Glaciers leave things in their path .
Now I need a Whiskey lol
Interesting Black Holes could be our release valves so our galaxy doesn't explode also I like your theory that light has force if it is true to see the very beginning go to the edge of light those particles should be from the beginning kinda like a glacier ...
Yet the past should be all around us Glaciers leave things in their path .
Now I need a Whiskey lol
edit on 18-12-2022 by Ravenwatcher because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Ravenwatcher
My idea is more like that the matter leaving this bubble is responsible for the stretch and when there is too less mass, it all snaps back together, both expanded space and ripping everything in it with it.
But it's just an idea, I called it theory, yet I have no math to provide, so it's really just an idea.
My idea is more like that the matter leaving this bubble is responsible for the stretch and when there is too less mass, it all snaps back together, both expanded space and ripping everything in it with it.
But it's just an idea, I called it theory, yet I have no math to provide, so it's really just an idea.
originally posted by: beyondknowledge
a reply to: chr0naut
You know that only works of you stand in front of one of those really bright arc lamp search lights. You look transparent until it starts cooking you.
"I can smell sausages!"
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