Did Western leftists betray the people of Ukraine?

This was a livestream from the Azovstal bunkers where Azov battalion is still holding out: www.youtube.com...

Sadly there's no subtitles yet, but here's a long twitter thread summarizing some of what was said.

Azov's preparations were sabotaged; we knew a big war with Russia was coming&prepared how we could-in ammunition &professional training. But received no Javelins, no new weaponry, no new guides. We collected knowledge ourselves, with help of personal military contacts

"We (Azov) were accused of being paramilitary Neo-Nazi bandits, far-right radicals. But the only thing where we are radical are our primary order - to defend the country" - Samoilenko

By 1 May, we destroyed 2.5k enemy personnel and wounded 5k - 15% of Russian losses in all of Ukraine. We destroyed up to 60 tanks & damaged 30 - >10% of total Russian losses in Ukraine. This is just 1 unit, here in Mariupol, under up to 150 🇷🇺air raids daily - Samoilenko

The Black Sea coast is where Russia has had the most success in this war. At first I thought this was because of terrain and better supply infrastructure, but maybe it's also because the Ukrainian north was better armed? How much sooner could this war have ended, how many civilian lives could have been saved if Azov had more and better weapons? Maybe Cherson would have resisted too. Now Ukraine will have to recapture these cities and it won't be cheap.

I don't think we'll learn the truth of this until after the war, because the fog of war and so on, and obviously now is not the time for infighting in Ukraine. But I suspect that woke Western liberal governments and also leftists influenced by Russian propaganda have been hesitant to arm the Azov battalion when they still had the chance to do so on a big scale. I know some weapons have gotten in by helicopter after the siege began, but that can't be a huge amount.

Let me be clear btw: I'm talking about pre February 2022 lethal aid to Ukraine, before Putin's new attack started. After that it's been a different situation.

So, who is guilty of this sabotage? I could see certain powers in the West wanting to kill two birds with one stone, cripple Putin but at the same time get rid of undesirable anti-globalist elements in Ukraine.

P.S. happy Victory Day 8 May!

a reply to: Cutepants


Ukraine's early rope-a-dope strategy is probably more responsible for what you described than anything else, but it sure would have been nice to get the Marioupol defenders more equipment earlier in the war.

a reply to: Cutepants

I would argue that it is not so clear cut as left and right.

In the UK some of the OLD labour guard did not want to condemn Russia while many of the Tory's have had personal friendship's and business deals with Putin's Oligarchy friends as well as them funding the Tory's elections.

Across the board it is not as it once was, at one time the Soviets wanted to back western Leftists even if those leftists were NOT communists as they saw them as being more reasonable to there own agenda while the US fought those same leftists in the west by backing the right wingers.

Putin though is surprisingly RIGHT wing and Russia under him has not been so close to left and often closer to right wing foreign governments (at least at the oligarch level though they have happily used the momentum left by the former Soviet regime to there advantage in more leftist nations).

So did the left betray the Ukraine.

NO and neither did the Right it was NOT originally our fight until we saw that civilians were being murdered.

And as for Azov maybe that guy mean's what he say's but it does NOT remove the fact they hero worship Bandera and his murdering child killing rapist so called WW2 Anti Soviet partisans, yes the Soviets were almost as bad but at least they did not put baby's bayonetted to trees as warning to there minority's like Banderas nationalists did to the Ukrainian polish during WW2.

No one want's to back Azov but to save the Ukraine is another matter and you know what this war may last longer than anyone thought, it is possible that the Ukraine will receive ever heavier and heavier weapons until they over power there Russian 'cousins', then the war may reverse direction with the Ukraine taking part of Russia as they will then be the more powerful and Russia refusing to back down or admit defeat, the danger is of course NUCLEAR and Escalation.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

I can understand why Mariupol wasn't top priority at the start of the war. Ukraine needed to make sure Kyiv was defended before they could start focusing on other parts of the country.

By the time Kyiv's safey was assured it was pretty much impossible to get anything into Mariupol.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

I can understand why Mariupol wasn't top priority at the start of the war. Ukraine needed to make sure Kyiv was defended before they could start focusing on other parts of the country.

By the time Kyiv's safey was assured it was pretty much impossible to get anything into Mariupol.

Exactly.

Their rope a dope strategy worked brilliantly, and resulted in russia being soundly defeated in most of the country, including Kiev, but by the time Ukraine was ready to start really fighting back it was too late to save Marioupol.

For now.

Well done Western Leftists. Or liberals or globalists or whatever.

Betraying Azov Battalion is a positive in my book.

The sooner the 21st century answer to the Dirlewagner Brigade is gone the better.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

If things keep going the way they're going, and Putin refrains from declaring war, I could definitely see the retaking of Mariupol as the unofficial end to this invasion.

It could also prompt the Russian military to remove Putin from power.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

If things keep going the way they're going, and Putin refrains from declaring war, I could definitely see the retaking of Mariupol as the unofficial end to this invasion.

It could also prompt the Russian military to remove Putin from power.

Not there yet, but things have definately been trending in that direction.

I see russia removing putin, and removing russian troops from all of Ukraine except Crimea while blaming putin for the while thing.

This is the russian 'surrender' I referred to 2 months ago.

Ukraine also intends to retake Crimea at that point, but nobody has provided Ukraine with the necessary tools to do that yet.

Unless extremely strong western pressure is applied to Ukraine, I think they'll try to retake Crimea at that point, whether they have the tools or not.



Short of declaring war and bringing in at least 200k additional russian troops, russia likely won't be occupying Marioupol or Kherson for very long.

Did Western leftists betray the people of Ukraine?

Yes .
By disregarding the fact this could have been avoided .
There was an offer of talks put forward , yet then Ukrainian government refused .
"Liberalism" is a mental disorder .

originally posted by: Gothmog

Did Western leftists betray the people of Ukraine?

Yes .
By disregarding the fact this could have been avoided .
There was an offer of talks put forward , yet then Ukrainian government refused .

russia refused many of the talks, but some did happen.

The 'offer' was a surrender of large areas of Ukrainian territory to russia, complete disarming of the Ukrainian military, replacing the government with one that russia prefers, complete future ban on joining NATO, making russian the official language of Ukraine, and permanently ending any treaties or mutual defense agreements with any country that russia doesn't like or russia will immediately invade and take over the entire country of Ukraine.


That wasn't an 'offer'.

Ukraine was right to refuse to bow down to ridiculous russian demands.

a reply to: LABTECH767


Did anyone in azov ever attack russia?

Even after russia invaded Ukraine to steal territory in 2014 and illegally occupied that Ukrainian territory for 8 years?

Or even threaten to do so?

Or even have the ability to do so?

Or did they send mean tweets?

a reply to: Gothmog

The length you guys will go to to blame things on the Left.

Putin's starting and best offer was essentially that Ukraine would become a vassal of Russia.

How is it the Left's fault that Putin offered the worst deal in history?

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Gothmog

The length you guys will go to to blame things on the Left.

Putin's starting and best offer was essentially that Ukraine would become a vassal of Russia.

How is it the Left's fault that Putin offered the worst deal in history?

I'm about the farthest thing from a leftist, and even I wouldn't make that absurd claim.

The democrat party is responsible for many of the things that led to putin believing he could get away with doing this, including many things that didn't even have anything to do with Ukraine, but russia is 100% responsible for what russia has done.

Nobody else.

a reply to: Cutepants

These are the same people who are trying to negotiate hostages for food and keep calling for an evacuation to Turkey. The same ones who sneak out and set mines on roads when there is a ceasefire to let the hostages out.

Why Turkey, why not Kyiv.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Gothmog

The length you guys will go to to blame things on the Left.

Putin's starting and best offer was essentially that Ukraine would become a vassal of Russia.

How is it the Left's fault that Putin offered the worst deal in history?

I'm about the farthest thing from a leftist, and even I wouldn't make that absurd claim.

The democrat party is responsible for many of the things that led to putin believing he could get away with doing this, including many things that didn't even have anything to do with Ukraine, but russia is 100% responsible for what russia has done.

Nobody else.

right. this one is on putin. he must be a leftist.



like the iran nuke deal and china trade deals. crimea. hunter.
think the blame is at the feet of who agrees with the deal.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Cutepants

These are the same people who are trying to negotiate hostages for food and keep calling for an evacuation to Turkey. The same ones who sneak out and set mines on roads when there is a ceasefire to let the hostages out.

Why Turkey, why not Kyiv.

russia is mining several areas in Ukraine, Ukraine has only been placing visible mines in roadways to slow down russian convoys for ambushes.


Meanwhile russia is regularly attacking Red Cross evacuation vehicles in negotiated humanitarian corridors.

Meanwhile, almost every day russia trades some of it's civilian hostages for russian POWs, because they rarely have enough Ukrainian POWs for the trade.

Meanwhile russia has forcibly deported tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians to russia where they are now held in 'filtration' (AKA 'concentration') camps.

Why keep making up this nonsense?

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

originally posted by: Gothmog

Did Western leftists betray the people of Ukraine?

Yes .
By disregarding the fact this could have been avoided .
There was an offer of talks put forward , yet then Ukrainian government refused .

russia refused many of the talks, but some did happen.

The 'offer' was a surrender of large areas of Ukrainian territory to russia, complete disarming of the Ukrainian military, replacing the government with one that russia prefers, complete future ban on joining NATO, making russian the official language of Ukraine, and permanently ending any treaties or mutual defense agreements with any country that russia doesn't like or russia will immediately invade and take over the entire country of Ukraine.


That wasn't an 'offer'.

Ukraine was right to refuse to bow down to ridiculous russian demands.

And where did you get your facts ?
NVM , I know and it ain't polite to say .

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

originally posted by: Gothmog

Did Western leftists betray the people of Ukraine?

Yes .
By disregarding the fact this could have been avoided .
There was an offer of talks put forward , yet then Ukrainian government refused .

russia refused many of the talks, but some did happen.

The 'offer' was a surrender of large areas of Ukrainian territory to russia, complete disarming of the Ukrainian military, replacing the government with one that russia prefers, complete future ban on joining NATO, making russian the official language of Ukraine, and permanently ending any treaties or mutual defense agreements with any country that russia doesn't like or russia will immediately invade and take over the entire country of Ukraine.


That wasn't an 'offer'.

Ukraine was right to refuse to bow down to ridiculous russian demands.

And where did you get your facts ?
NVM , I know and it ain't polite to say .

The sources used in the Update thread, as always.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Gothmog

The length you guys will go to to blame things on the Left.

Putin's starting and best offer was essentially that Ukraine would become a vassal of Russia.

How is it the Left's fault that Putin offered the worst deal in history?

Lay the blame where the blame lies .
"If the shoes fit , wear them"

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Gothmog

The length you guys will go to to blame things on the Left.

Putin's starting and best offer was essentially that Ukraine would become a vassal of Russia.

How is it the Left's fault that Putin offered the worst deal in history?

Lay the blame where the blame lies .
"If the shoes fit , wear them"

Nobody has any interest in wearing putin's shoes.

Nobody else is responsible for what russia has done, and continues to do to Ukraine.