Why Russia feels surrounded

originally posted by: 19Bones79
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2


Let me simplify. Tomorrow news breaks of Russian icbms pointed directly at the states from Cuba.

How would you feel about that?

About the same way I feel about the Russian missiles capable of mounting nuclear warheads sitting in the Kaliningrad Oblast (I live in Europe).

It is an unpleasant situation, but I don't think NATO has invaded Kaliningrad because of that.

Cheers

a reply to: 19Bones79

Why did NATO encroach eastwards towards Russia's borders?

Because they were invited to.
Many former USSR regions and Warsaw Pact countries actively sought out and asked to be a part of NATO.
Why?
Because they felt threatened by an increasingly antagonistic Russia where Nationalism was increasing and Putin was/is becoming increasingly obsessed with regaining what he believes is Russian territory and his dreams of Greater Russia.

There countries experienced life under Russian rule and they simply don't want to experience it again.

They are sovereign, independent nations in their own right and that's how they wish to remain.

Could NATO etc have handled it better?
Of course they both could have and should have.
They should certainly have been a damn sight more understanding of Russia's concerns.
And the truth is 'The West' should have been a lot more helpful to the post-Soviet regime instead of leaving an enormous power vacuum which enabled KGB gangsters and other shady types to step into and exploit. 'The West' put profit and 'free enterprise' before stability and progress.

Once Russia started flexing its muscles again it was inevitable that their former satellite countries and regions would seek support from elsewhere.
Russia hasn't exactly been benevolent in its approach to these countries before....they feel threatened and intimidated.
History and current events suggest that those fears were/are justified.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2


You're right it's a no-win situation.


And I remembered Russia also has the United States covered already, if reports are accurate.

Moreover, this buildup is not primarily defensive in purpose but rather offensive, namely the creation of a defensive screen behind which Russian conventional, nuclear, and now dual-use missiles can target both our allies and the continental United States (CONUS).

Russia's military buildup in the Arctic


So now both sides has got each other by the balls, who is going to claim the other's mother smelled of elderberries first?

originally posted by: 19Bones79
a reply to: loufo

Who in gods name still believes that France, Germany or Italy are not in lockstep with a new world order?

have you ever been to italy, france, spain, germany, etc... different cultures, no big warmongers, no idea what your new world order should look like but when i look at naples it is more likely that pizza hawaii will be offered there before a new world order comes into effect. just ask the mafia. what kind of world order is it anyway? is it about the jews or the muslims or the hardcore christians who are against abortion but at the same time abuse minors and live anything but according to the bible....? or we talking about the rising nationalism in some countries? or do you mean that gay people can marry? is this the new world order?

a reply to: loufo


Look at you, pretending there's no globalist order already holding Europe and the rest of the West in its thrall.

originally posted by: 19Bones79
a reply to: loufo


Look at you, pretending there's no globalist order already holding Europe and the rest of the West in its thrall.

in the end, it's all about money and power, it always has been. but that doesn't mean i can't move freely throughout europe and basically do whatever i want (within the bounds of the law). i can stand on the street and shout: merkel sucks and no one is coming to get me. if you are against globalization you should avoid the ultamitive tool of globalization: the internet.

a reply to: loufo

in the end, it's all about money and power, it always has been.

See, we can agree on some things.

but that doesn't mean i can't move freely throughout europe and basically do whatever i want

Shall we talk about the human rights abuses enforced by what used to be some of the most open societies in the past couple of years?

Take your pic, the West is moving towards total propaganda in the msm. Lies, distractions, deception, draconian measures and warmongering are the preferred tools to usher in the new age.

What is the new age I'm talking about?


Have a listen to Yuval Noah Harari, one of Klaus Schwabs lead advisors.



Klaus Schwab boasts how you will have no privacy and own nothing.

This guy distinguishes between the useless, poor people (his words) and the rich, who will be able to cheat death unlike the rest of us. (So some people will own a lot more than nothing, just not you.)

Here's his future vision of you walking down the street of Europe:




And finally here he talks about who our masters will be in the future, their digital dictatorships and hacking humans.




Does the future sound appealing to you?

originally posted by: 19Bones79


But are you openminded enough to watch a 7 minute summary showing beyond a shadow of a doubt how nato(the west) crept ever closer to Russia's border to the point where they deployed Mirv-multi thermonuclear warheads so close to Russia that they are able to overwhelm any anti-ballistic missile defense system that Putin may have?

NATO did not place MIRVed missiles close to Russia. All MIRVed missiles are kept either in submarines at sea or (in the case of the US) in underground silos located in the middle of the country. It has been that way for many decades. Because of nuclear arms treaties over the years, the total number of active nuclear warheads possessed by the US has gone down to less than 10% of the number at the peak of the Cold War.

Russia's objection is to the placing of ballistic missile defense interceptors in Europe to counter the development of ballistic missiles by Iran. Because those interceptors are closer to Russia than they are to Iran, Russia feels that its ability to threaten Europe with its own ballistic missiles has been diminished.

a reply to: Brotherman

That was Gorbachev, not yeltsin.

a reply to: 1947boomer

Russia's objection is to the placing of ballistic missile defense interceptors in Europe to counter the development of ballistic missiles by Iran.

How does and did that counter the development of ballistic missiles in Iran?

Hmmmm?

a reply to: DISRAELI
TY! One of the best explanations I have read so far!
Add to this that Russia as landmass has seen many invasions. Mainly from the east as Tartars and Mongols during the Middle Ages. But to stay with the recent events, it was napoleon in the early 1800's going for them. He did get Moscow after all. "1812" is still very "raw" for many. Just a bit over 100 years later WW1 began and another push against Russia. Hardly was that war over and the Bolshevik revolution began, the western allies sent in troops to help the Tsarists. Now WW1 is just less than 110 years ago and many of us still had grandparents that "were there and done that". So that s "Family". Just a bit over 20 years later Hitler goes in and devastates the land.
Look at it from a "family POV". Now today the WW2 Veterans are still around. People who we know and are often part of our own families.
After so many invasions and your personal history is constantly upset with "outside events" as these invasions; you do develop a "natural paranoia & a NATIONAL paranoia" of "anything" coming even remotely near your border that could eventually be used as an invasion force.
Recalling the events of the 90's and the Yeltsin disaster; I had warned many of my friends that this will "backfire" badly!
The reality however is that the "West" or let us rather say the "Capitalists" see in Russia pretty much nothing else but one huge real-estate with almost 50% of the worlds resources of whatever kind one points at. NATO has become the "enforcement bully" of the Capitalist Elite! They want Russia "westernized" to a free-market system that is sucking the blood out of us humans as well the environment. Their enforcement of the Petro-$ economy and so forth all turns some countries and people against this.
The West has and is tolerating a lot of bad regimes. Saudi Arabia comes to mind! And they "tolerate them" and their atrocities because they run with a free market economy! And Russia doesn't!
We all know that autistic kids HATE cuddles. Well a "invasion paranoid" people are akin to a autistic kid. So you don't pull up at their border with tanks and missiles and insist they "play" with you.
The Russian Army is known for its kind of "shoot them all" approach. So certain atrocities will happen and did happen. But this is again crying that the hornets stung you after you poked your stick into their nest.

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: 19Bones79

What exactly did Russia do to make nato want to get that close? There has to be 2 sides here for sure.

Wouldn't the US feel the same if Mexico and China, India surrounded US the way they are doing it to Russia?

originally posted by: vNex92

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: 19Bones79

What exactly did Russia do to make nato want to get that close? There has to be 2 sides here for sure.

Wouldn't the US feel the same if Mexico and China, India surrounded US the way they are doing it to Russia?

No, they are on different continents.

a reply to: SigiH55
Having said all that, we must keep the balance.

The Czars of the eighteenth century were keen on "guaranteeing" (i.e. making themselves protectors of) neighbouring states like Sweden and the Holy Roman Empire. Hence their involvement in the Seven Years War. Similarly Russia earned the nickname "Gendarme of Europe" after the military help given to authoritarian rulers in the crisis of 1848

Napoleon got to Moscow, but the Russian army was the one occupying Paris after 1815. Hitler nearly got to Moscow, but Stalin occupied not just Berlin but innocent countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Indeed the modern state of Russia exists in the first place only because of the expansionism of the state based on Moscow. Most good historical atlases have a page which illustrates the different stages. Remember the Republic of Novgorod.

So there are grievances on both sides. Russia can claim to be a victim, but has also made others victims.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SigiH55
Having said all that, we must keep the balance.

The Czars of the eighteenth century were keen on "guaranteeing" (i.e. making themselves protectors of) neighbouring states like Sweden and the Holy Roman Empire. Hence their involvement in the Seven Years War. Similarly Russia earned the nickname "Gendarme of Europe" after the military help given to authoritarian rulers in the crisis of 1848

Napoleon got to Moscow, but the Russian army was the one occupying Paris after 1815. Hitler nearly got to Moscow, but Stalin occupied not just Berlin but innocent countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Indeed the modern state of Russia exists in the first place only because of the expansionism of the state based on Moscow. Remember the Republic of Novgorod.

So there are grievances on both sides. Russia can claim to be a victim, but has also made others victims.

Fully agree with you there! What I tried to get across is that each country/nation/person has its "mentality". And if one is aware that a given mentality/reaction is to be expected from someone, then you don't poke the nest! And this is what I see with the USA/NATO system. A total ignoring of the reality of this "national mentality". The American form of Neo-liberal capitalism is a threat to many countries. And it is this constant working on changing these countries into compliant states is what will eventually have severe consequences. Russia/Ukraine is just the "beginning" of some "interesting times to come."

originally posted by: Cutepants

Remember the Soviet Union? Anyone? They murdered a lot of people and sent them to gulags and so on. That's why most of Eastern Europe joined NATO soon as they could.

I really am flabbergasted in how people forget that the USSR took 15 independent countries to add to themselves at a cost of 10s of millions of lives, and people are upset now that those countries do not want to go back as Russia tries to regain what they lost? People think it is those countries that are in the wrong to join up against their former oppressor to not be oppressed again?

Geez...

originally posted by: 19Bones79

Enjoy the nuclear holocaust, remember to duck and cover.

Its funny that the ONLY country on the planet that people talk about pushing the nuclear option button first is Russia. Don't piss off Russia they will push the button, Putin: Don't make me push it! We need to be nice since Russia has 6000 nukes and they will use them. How many more would you all like me to write 2 or 3 dozen more saying?

Russia is dangerous because they do not care if 80% of their population dies as they will harden in with 20% and call it a win. Its not like they haven't killed off their own population before either.

a reply to: SigiH55

Sigi, no one is making any countries in NATO adopt American style capitalism.

Where it has occurred, it was the choice of people in the country concerned.

Look: I saw what happened in Germany after the Berlin Wall fell. It had NOTHING to do with the USA. Rather: German capitalists, freed of the fear that the Red Army might show up and hang them all, suddenly no longer felt any obligation to the workers of German society. They destroyed the social compact that spread the wealth in Germany, quite deliberately, because they wanted to become richer. That robber baron mentality still exists today and is why so many in Germany are living off Hartz IV and other social assistance programs.

Put briefly, Germans did that to Germans without any prompting from the USA. And to be blunt, the rapaciousness of German capitalists would put Wall Street to shame.

Complain about the economic philosophies if you wish, but at least put the blame where it is deserved.

Cheers

originally posted by: SigiH55
We all know that autistic kids HATE cuddles. Well a "invasion paranoid" people are akin to a autistic kid. So you don't pull up at their border with tanks and missiles and insist they "play" with you.
The Russian Army is known for its kind of "shoot them all" approach. So certain atrocities will happen and did happen. But this is again crying that the hornets stung you after you poked your stick into their nest.

The issue that no one really wants to say is outside of the US and England NATO is a limp noodle. EU doesn't want to fight Russia, they just want to buy their energy. Russia threaten by the EU is a joke, the EU couldn't fight themselves out of a paper bag, and more importantly they really really do not want to. Even in Afghanistan all those NATO forces sat on their little bases making them look like home and waited it out all comply like. They didn't want to fight or do anything. The big joke was their patch ISAF really stood for I Saw Americans Fighting. Putin has zero and I mean ZERO threat from EU. Now China is a different story, but EU??? Give me a break.

a reply to: 19Bones79

Thing with NATO is that countries have to apply to be a member , the slide of Russia into totalitarianism is a better recruiting Sargent for NATO than if NATO sought out members.

The Russian government (Putin) is to blame for the expansion of NATO because of its own actions over the last 2 decades.