Russia accused of massacre, genocide over Bucha

a reply to: RussianTroll

That was no coup. they had elections JUST LIKE CRIMEA DID AFTERWARDS. SO if theirs were not on the up and up neither was crimeas.

a reply to: RussianTroll

In those times 2014 we had Russian trolls here too, so this is not new to us. I just browsed those old threads we had here many of them do not have a account anymore. So it was a trip to memory lane..

a reply to: Xtrozero

Well, I see that this all started with Maidan, when elections was replaced by the rule of force. That divided the country that was already culturally divided. Yeah, Putin seized the opportunity to gain influence over the separatists by supporting them, but the same happened with soviet union disintegration. Because of bad management, countries wanted independence for what they had every right and the west seized the opportunity by gaining influence over these countries by supporting it.

And I have never actually cared much about the nazi talk in the conflict. Seems more of a media spin for both sides to stir up the emotions of the masses to blame each other for being the ultimate evil, The Nazis.

originally posted by: ExiledSpirit777

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: ExiledSpirit777

I believe that what Russia has now begun to act in Ukraine should have been done 8 years ago, when a military coup was carried out there. I have been in a situation since 2014, when I worked a lot for the information support of Donbass. But then Russia was weak and could not resist NATO aggression in Ukraine. Now Russia is many times stronger. And the time has come.

You say stronger, but I see it has been embarrassed. More so with the video evidence that their troops (and im not saying Ukraine is 100% clean) have done. It's not a good look. They may say they have this all strong military, but it really is being shredded and embarrassed. So, I ask you, are you confident that your country comes out a winner in all of this?

Certainly 100% sure
And stubbornness is explained by the fact that Russians are fighting on both sides, and Russians can fight. It is a fact.

a reply to: RussianTroll


Russians sure are fighting, I've seen the cluster bombs in civilian areas and what little is left of Marioupol where the mayor said that 90% of his residential towers were intentionally destroyed by russian soldiers.

Pretty shameful stuff what your 'soldiers' are doing in Ukraine.

Don't you think it's past time for russians to leave Ukraine?

a reply to: eitea

The stupidest thing that the Ukraine govermnent did was to call civilians to arms, to fight against russian forces.

If someone invaded my country my government wouldn't have to 'call civilians to arms', many would just do it. I know I certainly would.
Why are people surprised that so many ordinary, civilian Ukrainians have chose to resist and fight forces invading their country?

I come from a small ex-soviet country and some of us still remember how the soviet union liked to lie and suppress information.

Why do you think this current Putin regime would be any different?

The power structure in Ukraine is in constant battle with each other, .....

Pretty much the same as most other countries as far as I can tell.
Only place where that doesn't happen is where you have despots, tyrants and dictators of one sort or another in control....places like Russia where Putin supresses all opposition quite brutally.

And democracy should not be only used as a sign when it suits our needs.

Indeed.

When the majority in the far east of Ukraine wants to define themselves as independent nations then they should have the right to do so.

Contrary to what many would have you believe Russians are NOT in the majority in Luhansk or Donetsk.
Around 40% of people living in the region are Russian or of direct Russian descent, the majority are Ukrainian.

Does that excuse Russians being victimised etc?
No, of course not.
But do not assume the majority would vote to become a vassal Russian state or to integrate into a Greater Russian Empire.

Should there be a referendum?
Possibly, especially if it would enable an end to the killing.

But for consistency I would expect to see Putin allow referendums to take place in the many places within Russia which are seeking independence or at least autonomy from Moscow.
After all, its right for Donbass it should be right for those places too, shouldn't it?

....and I find it hypocritical AF if I would tell that Ukraine has some kind of divine right over these lands....

Yet Putin is claiming that Russia has some sort of 'divine right' not just over Donbass but over Ukraine as a whole, bearing in mind he doesn't even recognise Ukraine as an independent country.

Putin is demanding that Russia has the right to dictate the policies of a neighbouring country.
Russia gets to decide who Ukraine - and other former USSR and Warsaw Pact countries - can align with.
What their foreign policy must be.

What gives Russia 'the right' to do that?

a reply to: Freeborn

If someone invaded my country my government wouldn't have to 'call civilians to arms', many would just do it. I know I certainly would. Why are people surprised that so many ordinary, civilian Ukrainians have chose to resist and fight forces invading their country?

If you know anything about warfare then you know that partisan warfare has always made things very messy for the civilian population for the reasons I already described. If you want to fight for your country, then enlist and receive proper training and discipline. It should be everyone's choice if they want to be involved in military conflicts or they just want to live a peaceful life. "Hollywood trained Rambos" are the worst in every military conflict, because they lack the training and discipline needed to handle such a difficult task. Their f*ck-ups have a high cost for everyone else who don't want to be involved in military conflicts.

Why do you think this current Putin regime would be any different?

One could write pages about the difference of soviet union and the current russian federation. The main difference in ideology is between capitalism and socialism and all the little differences that come from it like free market and central planning, state ownership or private ownership etc.

Pretty much the same as most other countries as far as I can tell. Only place where that doesn't happen is where you have despots, tyrants and dictators of one sort or another in control....places like Russia where Putin supresses all opposition quite brutally.

The difference can be well seen when comparing Ukraine to other former soviet countries. Our country gained independence from the soviet rule at the same time then Ukraine did, but our standard of living is around 10 times better. I consider the politicians of my country as immoral crooks, but when I compare them to the officials in Ukraine, then they seem like saints. And I'm not blaming the general population of Ukraine, because I have employed several ukrainians, and they are very hard working people. And it's not a surprise if their salary is around 10x bigger here then back home. I don't even blame them for Zelinsky the actor/producer/President being popular there. That TV show about the little guy fighting against corruption was probably their only hope after a long day at work and earning 120€ per month.

Contrary to what many would have you believe Russians are NOT in the majority in Luhansk or Donetsk. Around 40% of people living in the region are Russian or of direct Russian descent, the majority are Ukrainian.

Please just google "Ukraine demographics map" before expressing your personal opinion about demographic questions. And the question here is not only about ethnicity, but about political views. Yanukovich was popular there, and people there felt betrayed by the state, that their votes didn't count and "their guy" was taken down by brute force. I totally agree that Yanukovich was a crook, but so was Poroshenko and so is Zelinsky. Every new crook that comes into office will make life worse for the general population. As said, there is a reason why Ukraine is so underdeveloped when compared to other former soviet countries.

Yet Putin is claiming that Russia has some sort of 'divine right' not just over Donbass but over Ukraine as a whole, bearing in mind he doesn't even recognise Ukraine as an independent country. Putin is demanding that Russia has the right to dictate the policies of a neighbouring country. Russia gets to decide who Ukraine - and other former USSR and Warsaw Pact countries - can align with. What their foreign policy must be. What gives Russia 'the right' to do that?

This information is a surprise to me and never heard such talk. Putin supporting the independence of Donbass and knowing that they will get strong influence over it because of that. Their goals are selfish of course, but so is the foreign policy of every independent nation.
Our country is neighboring with Russia and have never heard of Putin dictating our policies. I think that this could be again your opinion about the situation, not the actual facts.

a reply to: eitea

If you know anything about warfare then you know that partisan warfare...... If you want to fight for your country, then enlist and receive proper training and discipline.

I have no first hand experience of war and have absolutely no desire to gain any.
Like many people I've read a lot about war and warfare and I do know too many who have experienced it first hand.
Many, many moons ago I got quite friendly with an old mate of my Dad's who had fought in WWI, boy did he tell me some stories.

Regardless of any that, if some foreign nation invaded my country I would do absolutely everything to resist them.
That's not some sort of online bravado, just a fact.
I couldn't just meekly submit and hope other people doing my fighting for me could secure my freedom, you might, I personally couldn't.

It should be everyone's choice if they want to be involved in military conflicts or they just want to live a peaceful life.

It should be everyone's right to live in a world free from war and conflict...but here we are.

One could write pages about the difference of soviet union and the current russian federation.

Of course there are ideological differences....but there are also some remarkable similarities not least the repressive nature of the regimes.
And there is very little difference in their foreign policy.

I've never alleged Ukraine is/was some sort of utopian paradise, there were obviously some really big issues....but they were their issues and not Russia's.

Please just google "Ukraine demographics map" before expressing your personal opinion about demographic questions.

Ok.
So what do you think the figures are?

According to the 2001 census, ethnic Ukrainians form 58% of the population of Luhansk Oblast and 56.9% of Donetsk Oblast. Ethnic Russians form the largest minority, accounting for 39% and 38.2% of the two oblasts respectively.

en.wikipedia.org...

"About number and composition population of UKRAINE by data All-Ukrainian population census 2001 data". State Statistics Cen.wikipedia.org...-auto-88ommittee of Ukraine. 2004. Archived from the original on 17 December 2011.

en.wikipedia.org...-auto-88

So, Ukraine allows a referendum in Donbass.
First of all; Do you think Putin would accept the result if they voted to remain in Ukraine?
Secondly; Would Putin in turn allow referendums in Russian areas where there are separatist and independence movements with large populations of people who do not consider themselves Russian?

Our country is neighboring with Russia and have never heard of Putin dictating our policies. I think that this could be again your opinion about the situation, not the actual facts.

Is Putin demanding that Ukraine agree not to seek membership of NATO and EU and that they remain neutral - they have been denied membership before.
Surely that is forcing a policy on an independent nation?
Do independent nations have a right to decide for themselves?
Or must all their 'decisions' be approved by their stronger neighbours?

a reply to: eitea


Perhaps russia shouldn't have brutally invaded a non threatening neighbor in an effort to steal land then.

Has russia found any of those imaginary weapons labs yet?

How about the fictional nukes under Cherynobol?

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: ExiledSpirit777

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: ExiledSpirit777

I believe that what Russia has now begun to act in Ukraine should have been done 8 years ago, when a military coup was carried out there. I have been in a situation since 2014, when I worked a lot for the information support of Donbass. But then Russia was weak and could not resist NATO aggression in Ukraine. Now Russia is many times stronger. And the time has come.

You say stronger, but I see it has been embarrassed. More so with the video evidence that their troops (and im not saying Ukraine is 100% clean) have done. It's not a good look. They may say they have this all strong military, but it really is being shredded and embarrassed. So, I ask you, are you confident that your country comes out a winner in all of this?

And stubbornness is explained by the fact that Russians are fighting on both sides, and Russians can fight. It is a fact.

Yeah right, Russians can fight... but what purpose does it serve?

Every time I try to correct a glitched post lately, it just turns into a double post. It must be a total conspiracy against me!

... just sayin.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

You inspired me

a reply to: dragonridr


Thanks for the Springfield!

An all time Fav for me.

originally posted by: eitea

And I have never actually cared much about the nazi talk in the conflict. Seems more of a media spin for both sides to stir up the emotions of the masses to blame each other for being the ultimate evil, The Nazis.

Maidan is most likely where. The problem is this isn't a 50/50 event of pro Russia or pro independence as you suggest with the culturally divided statement, though Russia wants people to believe it is a 80/20 or better pro Russia vs pro independence thing when in fact it is the other way around. The Maiden protest was when Ukraine dropped joining the EU and Putin put in a pro Russia government that lasted about 2 years. I really think Putin thinks it is like 90/10 as he was not ready to fight the war he has now. I really think he thought his tanks would go to the capital in a couple of days with little resistance to meet crowds of cheering people, it didn't happen...

Russia, EU, America, China, ME etc all push the same for political leverage so nothing new there, same old same old. The big difference is Russia actually invaded, this makes 3 times now where they are pushing new territories to add to the motherland under false pretenses to do so.

Putin pointed and screamed Nazis and so the people that support them even here on ATS scream Nazis too, but I really see it as a way for Putin to de-humanize the population there. Much easier for his troops to kill people if they are evil Nazis, right? It is interesting that the real Nazis dehumanized the Jews to make is so easy to kill them too... just a point...

I been in Spain for 2 weeks and the onsite reporting that is now happening from news agencies like Al Jazeera and other type news agencies is not looking good for Putin as live reports from the people who have survived in the cities are now talking. So the hype that all the atrocities is actually the Ukrainians on their own people is pretty much dead as no one but Russia is saying that now, and boy are they saying that and more to their own people.

I remember a 90 year-old great grandmother said. "it is just like when the Nazis came, the only difference is these speak Russian and I can understand them, I hate Russians." Pretty damn strong statement...

a reply to: Xtrozero

It was most certainly not the other way around on the south and east of the country. Places from odessa all the way east to areas south of Kharkiv are full of russian speaking Ukrainians and those are they regions which had the referendum. From the video I have seen from the time period of the 2014 referendums not only did I see a lot of people who wanted to side with Russia but more importantly I saw a lot of people saying they did not want to live under the new nationalist government. I would bet this would account for the overwhelming vote to separate...as it was quite apparent then what kind of people took over the country during Maiden.

Before during and after this referendum in which not all regions even got to have a vote because said nationalist (neo nazi) groups actually came in and destroyed polling places and beat and killed anyone trying to vote. Since then they nationalist groups have been trying to "cleanse" the regions which voted out, or regions which they prevented from voting that wanted to, of anyone unsympathetic to their new nationalist government. To the nationalists (neo nazis) these people are subhuman as they have stated on video many times and they aim too kill them all as they have also stated on video many times.

This is the reason you don't see a lot of complaints from the areas around kiev that russians held about ukraine as the majority here sided with the new nationalists. The bodies on the streets of Bucha all had white arm bands either on their arms or binding their hands...not to mention the mayors announcement of SAFARI coming into Bucha to cleanse the town of Orcs (ukrainian derogatory word for anything involving russia including sympathizers which can include taking help from russians). It also just so happens that the dead bodies pictured fits much better into that timeline than the media backed timeline which tries to say the russians did it and no one mentioned it for 4 days...

originally posted by: yuppa

That was no coup. they had elections JUST LIKE CRIMEA DID AFTERWARDS. SO if theirs were not on the up and up neither was crimeas.

People just forget about Crimea...

So Russia goes in and mashes the crap out of them, and for some reason 93% of the population vote with a high 80% in favor to join Russia again... geez

1. Russian internal reports was it was actually only 30% voted with 50% saying they wanted to join Russia.
2. The ballots had just two choices 1. Russia and 2. No support from anyone. There was not a 3rd option to stay with Ukraine, so that wasn't even a part of the vote.
3. Armed Russian guards made people vote
4. Only Russia news reported as zero outsiders were allowed in.
5. The actual population there is only 60% Russia while for some strange reason high 80% voted to join Russia..lol OK

Even with all that people here keep saying but the people voted to join Russia... Give me a break.

Now we look at the so called coup from Nazis...

1. In the east where the most Russians live there is about 4 million Russians in the separatist areas, and that isn't even 10% of the population.
2. 73% voted basically not with Russia after Putin installed his proxy Goverment there.
3. People keep saying Kolomoisky led the coup, but all he really did was fund the support for Zelensky, people still voted and they really dislike the Russians a good deal no matter what anyone says.


So in the end which one is actually closer to the truth...

a reply to: RickyD

We will see how it all plays out, and as I said it is not looking good for Putin. Just remember Russia are the invaders, they are ones bombing the crap out of everything. We will see where the spin ends up, but even in the east there is a lot of anti-Russian sentiment now from this latest action. The only people screaming Nazis is Russia, even Japan is now supporting Ukraine with heavy Russian sanctions. The whole world isn't wrong in some big evil scheme and somehow Russia is the one Golden light...lol

Just wait when China invades Taiwan and they too say how evil Taiwan is, and they are just there to help the poor people... Old communist propaganda tactics are so God damn awful, but people believe what they want to no matter what.


Ukrainians as a whole are no where near in favor of Russia as Russia wants all to believe, don't forget that Russia starved and killed 30% of the population back in the 1930s there, Ukraine hasn't... I live in Washington state with a huge Russian/Ukraine population and my friends all hate Russia for what they have done to Ukraine over the years in so many bad ways as life under the USSR was not good anyway you look at it either. BTW all my friends speak Russian too as it was forced on the population as the primary language of the old USSR. Russia has done nothing but pillage and blundered Ukraine for their own needs not Ukrainian needs or wants. That has only held them back from being a prosperous real world power.

a reply to: Xtrozero

That sure isn't how Greece felt about it when recently addressed in their parliment house by any Azov nazi. They didn't seem to enthusiastic about supporting anything involved with it and were offended by his prescience in their government building.

Last I heard Taiwan hadn't had a violent coup to install a nationalist government who pals around with neo nazis. I have also not seen any referendums there to join china...so I guess your whole last paragraph is moot.

originally posted by: RickyD

Last I heard Taiwan hadn't had a violent coup to install a nationalist government who pals around with neo nazis. I have also not seen any referendums there to join china...so I guess your whole last paragraph is moot.

A vote is a violent coup? Crimea is a violent coup, you need to open your eyes to see the difference lol. Also stop with the Neo Nazis...geez. The areas in question in the referendum is a very small area of Ukraine. You want to just keep pushing Putin's propaganda war and so be it. It is not up to Russia to push their agendas on Ukraine, if the people there do not like the Government vote them out. The BS in the east these last 7 years has just been a Putin proxy war he has been funding all this time. It hasn't worked so he decided to actually invade. You know to get all those Nazis...

Remember in my post when I said to de-humanize a population it is so much easier to killed them... Mark my words here with the whole Nazi thing.

a reply to: Xtrozero

You should go back and actually look at what happened in the Maiden coup then as you seem woefully ignorant of the events which took place. There was no vote...just a violent coup then then US picked their favorites to run the interim gov. Many of the nazi groups which instigated and perpetrated a lot of the violence quickly gathered power in the vaccume left by the recently ousted government. There is plenty of evidence even from very pro western media from back then if you care to look. The new government has been comitting atrocities on civilians since day 1 basically...only getting worse and worse the more people who ignorantly support it.