Proof of Russia forcing civilians to lie

a reply to: turretless

Lavrov

a reply to: Ksihkehe

Well were did you hear about it or read about it? I don't find anything on google.

Both sides lie like fish.....Actually, I do not know why that saying exists, has anyone ever heard a fish lie?

I just looked it up, the full saying is lie like a fish tale or story I guess. People just shortened it I suppose.

a reply to: Boadicea

But what did the twitter guy even say? I feel like you're just trying to distract from the matter at hand. And what previous stories are you referring to? The different ones put out by Russian embassies and so on? I'm not saying those are her stories.

The fact that there was a single, very large crater rules out artillery imo. They don't even use big enough artillery for that.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s remarks and answers to media questions following talks with Foreign Minister of Turkey Mevlut Cavusoglu and Foreign Minister of Ukraine Dmitry Kuleba, Antalya, March 10, 2022

10 March 2022 22:12

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Question:

Russia has used a lot of different words to justify the invasion of Ukraine. You’ve said that it’s for the Ukrainian people. But how can you possibly justify the bombing of a maternity ward and a children’s hospital? Do you agree with President Zelensky that it is an atrocity – to target pregnant mothers and children is, in fact, an atrocity? And also, for the Russian people themselves, today Russia faces a $40 billion default. That’s worse than we’ve seen in the Russian economy since 1917, in the Bolshevik revolution. How will you justify it to the people at home, that you’ve wrecked their economy for an invasion that, frankly, the rest of the world does not believe should be happening?


Sergey Lavrov:

Regarding the maternity hospital, we have heard an emotionally charged outcry over the so-called “atrocities” allegedly committed by the Russian armed forces. Three days ago, on March 7, our delegation at the UN Security Council meeting provided facts to prove that this maternity hospital had been taken over by the far-right Azov battalion, who ordered all pregnant women, medical nurses and other personnel out of the building. You can draw your own conclusions about the manipulation of public opinion around the world.

I have seen reports by your network and other Western media today. They are very emotional. Regrettably, no attention is being given to the other side, which would have allowed people to have an objective view of the situation.

As for the Russian economy, well, we will take care of it ourselves. The President and the Government are working on this now. You have said that we are using a lot of different words to justify our actions in Ukraine. We had been trying for years to draw attention to the turning of Ukraine into “anti-Russia.” Since the early 2000s, the West openly demanded before every election that Ukraine make a choice between the West and Russia. That is, you are either with us, or against us. Is this the Western values that were being forced on the Ukrainian people?

We have also seen other things. When a pro-Western candidate got the smallest number of votes, as it happened in 2009, the West forced the Ukrainian Constitutional Court to adopt a decision on the third round of voting, in violation of the Constitution of Ukraine. There were a lot of such manipulations in those “best years.” Ukraine was being consistently turned into a pro-Western instrument for Western experiments. Ultimately, NATO demanded that Ukraine must be free to join the bloc, naval bases were being established in Ukraine, and the deployment of missiles, which were a direct threat to the Russian Federation, was discussed. It has now turned out that military biological laboratories were operating there secretly from the public in Ukraine and the rest of the world. When it was suggested that Ukraine should abandon its non-nuclear status, we appealed to the reason and conscience of our Western partners and urged them to coordinate security principles for Europe.

They replied that any issue could be discussed but that we should back off from the matter of NATO’s expansion. They would decide it without us. We should not worry because NATO’s expansion would not affect our security. Why should NATO make decisions on issues of our security and our security interests? This won’t do. Russia won’t be spoken to like that. We are not going to justify our actions in Ukraine. Their goals are perfectly clear: we don’t want the militarisation of Ukraine, whether it is or isn’t a member of NATO, because US [missile] systems targeting our territory can be deployed there without NATO. We don’t want Ukraine to become a neo-Nazi state where battalions wearing SS stripes march before the President of Ukraine, and where these militants are trained to stage terrorist attacks. We want Ukraine to be a neutral state. President Putin said on numerous occasions that while insisting on NATO’s non-expansion we are not going to overlook the security interests of the Ukrainian nation. We are ready to discuss security guarantees for Ukraine together with security guarantees for European countries and Russia. Judging by the recent statements made by President Zelensky, awareness of this approach is growing, which inspires a certain amount of optimism.
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Question:

You said some time ago that Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine. I think today you said that Russia did not invade Ukraine, when it clearly has. You’ve also said that Russia would not hurt civilians, and thousands have been hurt, homes destroyed, and it seems that hospitals are being attacked. Why should the Ukrainians take you seriously, with all due respect? Why should they, and the rest of the world, believe a word you say?


Sergey Lavrov:

I have mentioned hospitals and maternity homes, but you are not listening. This will never be shown and not a single Western media outlet will report that we explained at the UN Security Council three days ago what had happened to that maternity hospital.

As for the claims about who will do what or who will not do what, we wanted to solve this problem diplomatically until the last moment. We presented a detailed document about the Russian-US bilateral agreement and a draft Russia-NATO agreement on all the key European security issues, which takes into account the security interests of all countries without exception, including Ukraine. We were told that Ukraine was “theirs,” that they would decide Ukraine’s fate together with Ukraine, and that they would do as they pleased. They have also rejected many other Russian suggestions, including one on preventing physical land-based threats to the Russian Federation. President of Russia Vladimir Putin has made it clear why he has taken the decision to launch a special military operation. I hope that you (even if you will not be allowed to communicate this to your listeners and viewers) will be able to read the Russian document personally and understand our logic. It is explained there. We would like to see a Ukraine that is friendly, demilitarised, and immune to the danger of the creation of yet another Nazi state, a Ukraine that will not ban the Russian language, Russian culture, and the Russian Orthodox Church. Regrettably, all of this has been done and is reflected in law. All our admonitions during the eight years since the coup in Kiev and our appeals to our Western colleagues that they should bring the Ukrainian authorities to their senses have run against a dead wall of silence. Take, for example, the most obvious things regarding the Russian language.
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mid.ru...

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: Boadicea

But what did the twitter guy even say?

First this:

Marianna, the pregnant girl from #Mariupol, turns out to be one of the refugees that has been taken to #Russia in violation of the evacuation agreement.

And then this:

Small update: other sources are stating Marianna is not in Russia but in separatist-occupied Donetsk.

I feel like you're just trying to distract from the matter at hand.

And there it is. Big big sigh.

The matter at hand is your OP, and your titular assertion that this is "proof of Russia forcing civilians to lie." I don't see any proof. I asked you to explain your assertion that this is proof. I'm not the one distracting from that. I have stayed on point. Unfortunately, apparently you cannot explain your assertion that this is proof of anything, and resort to the same old tired accusations that I'm the problem.

And what previous stories are you referring to? The different ones put out by Russian embassies and so on? I'm not saying those are her stories.

I guess any and all stories that have been put out previous to this video interview.

The fact that there was a single, very large crater rules out artillery imo. They don't even use big enough artillery for that.

Okay, so that's your opinion... I don't have an opinion because I don't know enough to have an opinion. But your opinion is not proof of anything either.

I get it. There is no proof. I'm not missing anything.

a reply to: turretless

Thanks!

The Russian elite's obsession with Ukraine is proving very costly, I hope eventually reason will prevail.

Lavrov refers to this speech (in Russian) - russiaun.ru...

But it only says the following:


По нашим данным, в одном только Мариуполе...
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According to our data, in Mariupol alone, Azov is targeting 200,000 civilians trapped by radicals. The humanitarian situation in the cities is rapidly deteriorating, and humanitarian workers ready to provide assistance are not able to get there and prevent the catastrophe unfolding in the city. The same critical state of affairs among people in other areas of the country, blocked by the national battalions.

We note that Ukrainian radicals are showing their true face more and more clearly every day. Local residents report that, having driven out the entire staff of the maternity hospital No. 1 in Mariupol, the Armed Forces of Ukraine equipped a firing position in it. They completely destroyed one of the kindergartens in the city.

In addition to this, we declare that the Ukrainian side categorically refuses to cooperate on the evacuation of people from Kharkiv and Sumy.
...........................
...по вопросам эвакуации людей из Харькова и Сум.

originally posted by: Cutepants

Thanks!

The Russian elite's obsession with Ukraine is proving very costly, I hope eventually reason will prevail.

Now you understand that Lavrov did not recognize any attack on the hospital?

And so your first post is wrong.

a reply to: Boadicea

But like I said, I never claimed to know where she is. And it's not relevant to my argument. So your theatrical sighing is unnecessary. I just said it seems that she is in Donetsk, and that would make sense because that's where she's from. I can't verify this though. Maybe later we will know.

What kind of cannon do you think would make a crater like that?

a reply to: turretless

What are you talking about? I never said anything like that.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Our governments is no different they had been lying to us for many years on Libya, Syria. Do you still believe that rebels in Syria are moderates?

originally posted by: rickymouse
Both sides lie like fish.....Actually, I do not know why that saying exists, has anyone ever heard a fish lie?

I just looked it up, the full saying is lie like a fish tale or story I guess. People just shortened it I suppose.

Fish out of water can only lie.

Not that lie, the other lie.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: turretless

What are you talking about? I never said anything like that.

"Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov admitted to the attack" - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Or in English "admit" so much different from "recognize"?


Google Translate gives the following synonyms for a "recognize":

acknowledge accept admit concede allow grant confess own - and so on.

a reply to: turretless

I haven't said either of those things. I never said he didn't recognize an attack nor that he didn't admit to the attack. Don't be putting words in my mouth now.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: turretless

I haven't said either of those things. I never said he didn't recognize an attack nor that he didn't admit to the attack. Don't be putting words in my mouth now.

Once again, carefully read what I quote from your words: "Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov admitted to the attack"

Do you understand the difference between "didn't admit" and "admitted"?


The fact is that Lavrov claims that: "this maternity hospital had been taken over by the far-right Azov battalion"

This does not mean that the Russians attacked this maternity hospital.

This means that the Ukrainian military are the masters there and do what they want with the hospital.

For example, they can destroy a hospital and shoot a video about this, talking about the barbarism of the Russian military.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: Boadicea

But like I said, I never claimed to know where she is.

Please don't deflect and distract. Your title and OP asserts "proof of forcing civilians to lie." I don't see it. I asked you directly for an explanation. You have not provided one. You do however continue inserting other factors into the equation, thus deflecting and distracting from your assertions in your title and OP.

And it's not relevant to my argument.

Well, to be clear, it's not relevant to your OP either, except to the extent that it is or is not "proof" of anything. The relevance is the changed story, further discrediting that it is "proof" of anything. Incorrect "facts" have a definitive way of disproving "proof."

So your theatrical sighing is unnecessary.

I believe you meant "metaphorical"? And of course it was "unnecessary." It was, however, illustrative and quite appropriate.

What kind of cannon do you think would make a crater like that?

LOL! I have no freaking idea!!! As I've already stated, I don't have an opinion on that, because I do not know enough to have an opinion.

originally posted by: turretless

Once again, carefully read what I quote from your words: "Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov admitted to the attack"

Do you understand the difference between "didn't admit" and "admitted"?

Well that's what I explained very clearly in my last post. So we are in agreement?

a reply to: Boadicea

Metaphorical? I meant theatrical.

And if you agree that it's irrelevant to my OP, why do we need to talk about it?

a reply to: Cutepants

Your post yea?

Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov admitted to the attack, speaking to UN Security Council the day after, while Russia's ambassador to the Netherlands for example claimed that the whole thing was fake. So they've been trying out different lies to see what sticks.

We have already fone this dance before. Where you lie flat out on the face of the truth. You denied making a post on another thread then went confronted with it you argued a while until I linked and quoted your post...then you ran away for a few hours then came back and never responded about it again. You are worse than the silly one...and that's a hard act to top!

a reply to: Boadicea

I have yet to see an honest post yet from this user about this topic at least. If you do go through the effort to pin them on their dishonesty and they run out of ring around the roesy they will just hide for a bit then ignore it and continue on. Just know others can see it for what it is too...

a reply to: Cutepants

Metaphorical? I meant theatrical.

And if you agree that it's irrelevant to my OP, why do we need to talk about it?

Okay, whatever. My question has been answered by your non-answers despite me giving you many many opportunities to do otherwise.

At this point, our words will have to stand on their own merits (or lack thereof).