What's the origin of information in the genome?

Those who accept a natural interpretation of evolution have to overcome insurmountable odds. Evolution shouldn't even be accepted as a serious explanation of anything until it can explain the origin of information and how information can increase naturally in face of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

First, let's explain the connection between entropy and information.

Claude Shannon, the founder of information theory, described information as the reduction of uncertainty. So if have a box delivered and you didn't order anything, you are uncertain about what's in the box. When you open the box and see what's inside, you reduce uncertainty and there's an increase of information.

Shannon called a bit the smallest level of uncertainty. So when you flip a coin, the probabilities look like this. Heads(.5) and tails(.5). Say you flip the coin and it lands on heads. You would have reduced uncertainty and gained 1 bit of information. I(head) = - log (.5) = 1 bit.

So we can encode a system like a computer, brain or DNA with the lowest bits of information to describe a system. This is why an intelligent agent can reduce uncertainty or create a machine that can reduce uncertainty and increase information.

Naturally, an open system can give you order like a snowflake or a diamond but they will not be encoded with information to build a snowman or a diamond watch. It takes an intelligent mind that has knowledge of the information it takes to describe its lowest entropy states anand reduce uncertainty and then manipulate and increase information.

If you accept evolution, you have to explain how nature reduced uncertainty and increased information in the genome. You have to explain how nature created syntax and semantics in the sequence of nucleotides.

How was information encoded on the sequence of DNA?

How did nature know the information needed to describe these lower entropy states and increase information?

Let's look at a deck of cards to illustrate this further.

A deck of cards in the order A-K and in suit is a low entropy state. It takes fewer bits of information to describe the order of the cards. I can say the cards are A-K and diamonds 1st, spades 2nd, hearts 3rd and clubs 4th. That's all of the information you need to represent the order of the cards. When I shuffle the cards, uncertainty and entropy increases. In order to describe the deck of cards, I have to say the king of hearts is 1st, the 7 of spades is 2nd, the Ace of clubs is 3rd..... So it takes more information to describe the deck of shuffled cards. If I reduce the cards to it's lowest entropy state it reduces the uncertainty of the order the cards are in.

A factorial of 52 cards is astronomically large. The number of combinations the cards can be in is 8.0658*10^67. If a deck of cards were shuffled for 13.8 billion years, it's still not enough time for all of the combinations in the cards to occur. Here's an interesting video on this:



So out of the 8.0658*10^67 combinations the 52 cards can be in, just 24 of those cards can be in its lowest entropy state which is a combination of A-K in the order of hearts, diamonds, spades and clubs.

An intelligent mind can reduce the deck of cards to it's lowest entropy states with ease. This is because we know and can manipulate or encode in bits to describe different states of the deck of cards. A mind or a machine created by the mind can reduce the uncertainty and increase the information of a system.

If you accept a natural interpretation of evolution, you have to explain how nature can reduce uncertainty and increase information. How does nature know the information to describe the lowest entropy state? How can nature build the machinery to encode this information? How could nature reduce the uncertainty of a system like a deck of cards to it's lowest 24 entropy states out of 8.0658*10^67 different combinations?

It really gets bad for those who believe in a natural interpretation of evolution. We won't even look at the genome of a human with 3 billion base pairs. Let's look at Mycoplasma genitalium which has a genome of 580,070 base pairs and codes for 525 genes. So to get this genome, nature would not be dealing with 52 different combinations but 580,000 different combinations!

Let's say that again!

So to get this genome, nature would not be dealing with 52 different combinations but 580,000 different combinations!

The 2nd law of thermodynamics destroys any increase of information. Unless you have a mind that has knowledge of the information needed to describe the low entropy state or a machine designed by that mind, information can never originate or increase.

The second law, entropy, would destroy this. An open system just means entropy can be reduced and you can get an ordered system like a diamond. It doesn't mean if the sun shines on a puddle of mud you will get a reduction of uncertainty and the knowledge of the information needed to describe its lowest entropy state or the knowledge to build machinery that can encode this information.

This brings us to the genome. What's the connection between nucleotide bases and amino acids? When and how did nature decide the sequence GTC would code for Valine instead of Leucine?

Why does nature need a genetic code? I can understand why an intelligent designer would use a genetic code. It would be needed to encode information of a system to get around the 2nd law.

The 2nd law destroys information and any chance of an increase of information unless you have designed machinery to get past this. You have to have a mind that has knowledge of the information needed to describe the state of a system and encode it in the sequence of a storage medium.

CONT'D

Look at a computer. Bits just don't coalesce in a computer. You need a mind to build the machinery to manipulate these bits to encode the information you want to encode on its sequence.

So you need transistors and gates. You have bytes which are 8 bits and an electrical charge = 1 and no electrical charge = 0.

The human mind can manipulate information by building machinery that has nothing to do with the lowest entropy state of a system. For instance a diamond is a low entropy state that forms naturally, a diamond watch is not a low entropy state that forms naturally, it's designed by an intelligent mind.

This is why the genome makes no sense as something natural. Why would nature create a code where nucleotide bases code for amino acids? Why would naturehave a transcription and translation process? Why would nature form a polypeptide chain of a sequence of amino acids encoded on a gene? Why would it build molecular machinery to decode this information? Why would there be a correlation between digital and analog data? Why would there be syntax and semantics? Why would nature do this?

If amino acids naturally are reduced to proteins and proteins are the lowest entropy state of amino acids then why do you need any of these things? You can just shine sunlight on a puddle of water and get life.

You need this intelligent design because amino acids don't naturally form the sequence of proteins in the human body.

Roughly 500 amino acids have been identified in nature, but just 20 amino acids make up the proteins found in the human body.

www.ajinomoto.com...

How did only 20 amino acids end up in the genome? When and how did nature decide on just 20?

Also:

Essential amino acids cannot be made by the body. As a result, they must come from food.
medlineplus.gov...

How did nature create a genetic code that included amino acids that a human would need before humans even existed?

I have to repeat that:

How did nature create a genetic code that included amino acids that a human would need before humans even existed?

Think about that!

There's amino acids that aren't synthesized by the body yet the genome included these amino acids in the genetic code before we even existed!

How did nature know we would need these amino acids and encode them on the sequences of DNA? How did nature do this when the sun destroys DNA?

Sunlight damages DNA in the dark

They found that UVA radiation, the main type of UV light that comes from the Sun and from tanning beds, creates melanin by-products that damage DNA

www.nature.com...

There goes the primordial soup!

So bits have to be designed to encode information like on a computer. We break it down to bytes and these bytes can encode everything from text to video. How does nature know how many bits describe a low entropy state? How can nature then build machinery to encode this information in the sequence of a storage medium in tthe face of the 2nd law?

I think Alice would be like, this is too crazy for wonderland!

On a serious note, this is such a huge lie that is the driving force behind many atheist. Many people accept evolution blindly because scientist say it's true.

So I ask people to pray that their eyes are open to these lies that separate them from God's Grace through Jesus Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

My belief in a transcendent Creator is based on my observations of the creation and my conclusion that this level of order could not have happened by chance, but must have been put together by an astounding intelligence and with a purpose. Just as I might look at a clock or a computer (both which are less complex than the creation by orders of magnitude) and can deduct that they were made by an intelligent being with a purpose in mind, so do I with the universe.

One would have to be a stone cold idiot to think otherwise, to assume that a clock or a computer just happened on its own because the can't "see" the person or people who designed and built it.

The ones who exercise "blind faith" are those who assume that this all happened by chance with no design or intelligence behind it. That requires an immense leap of blind faith!

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. ~Psalm 19:1

:

Excellent OP, S&F!

it has never made sense to me to believe this happened by random chance. I believe in God and intelligent design.

It is not even an argument I have anymore...if someone does not want to believe, there is nothing I can do to change their mind.

So I ask people to pray that their eyes are open to these lies that separate them from God's Grace through Jesus Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm happy with my current provider, your company doesn't feature anything extra that is essential or useful to my lifestyle, please remove this number from your call list.

some sort of supreme consciousness created the elements of life. Evolution cannot explain everything, there is more to it than that. Frequency interacts with the genome to form things, that frequency varies from planet to planet throughout the universe. Change the frequency...which includes changing food and metabolism which contribute...you will change the shape. Viruses also create change, and so do elements of a virus in a vaccine. We cannot look at just a few thousand years to make a conclusion and millions of year old DNA is not really available...but does exist in some dinosaur fossils on occasion.

We are altering our diet too fast, I have no clue what kind of changes this can cause in the future of mankind.

And then we have the weightless, massless phenomena responsible for all societal achievement: Consciousness. And by that I refer to kind of consciousness capable of abstraction & self-awareness.

The blind-faith believing priests of materialism either admit they can't explain it, or proffer a lot of double-speak that essentially affirms they can't explain it but hope you don't notice. Doofy one-liners are also endemic to that type.

originally posted by: The GUT
And then we have the weightless, massless phenomena responsible for all societal achievement: Consciousness. And by that I refer to kind of consciousness capable of abstraction & self-awareness.

The blind-faith believing priests of materialism either admit they can't explain it, or proffer a lot of double-speak that essentially affirms they can't explain it but hope you don't notice. Doofy one-liners are also endemic to that type.

You glossed over the part where no one on this site or anywhere else in the world has in fact answered the mystery of consciousness and its causes or ultimate "purpose".

I like the story of the 3 wise mice. I’m paraphrasing here but you’ll get the gist.

Once upon a time there were 3 very wise and curious mice that lived inside of a piano. Each night the owner of the house would sit down and play the piano and the mice enjoyed the music. They didn’t however, understand where the beautiful music ultimately came from. It was a mystery. One of the mice suggested there may be some kind of composer or musician but he couldn’t prove it.

One night, one of the more skeptical of the mice got enough courage to sneak out and investigate. He saw a long, large wire vibrating intensely and he understood it was this wire creating this sound! There was no piano player!

The next night the 3rd mouse snuck out to see for himself and he went a little farther then the last mouse and saw that while yes, the sound was coming from the large wire, it was a hammer that was striking the wire which makes a sound!

The mice rejoiced and marveled at their own wisdom and enlightenment. They were amazed to see how far they’d come intellectually. From a composer, now fairytale, to a wire, now legend, to a hammer, now truth!

All 3 mice went to bed and dozed off. Each enjoying the music which came from the pianist.

originally posted by: incoserv
My belief in a transcendent Creator is based on my observations of the creation and my conclusion that this level of order could not have happened by chance, but must have been put together by an astounding intelligence and with a purpose. Just as I might look at a clock or a computer (both which are less complex than the creation by orders of magnitude) and can deduct that they were made by an intelligent being with a purpose in mind, so do I with the universe.

One would have to be a stone cold idiot to think otherwise, to assume that a clock or a computer just happened on its own because the can't "see" the person or people who designed and built it.

The ones who exercise "blind faith" are those who assume that this all happened by chance with no design or intelligence behind it. That requires an immense leap of blind faith!

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. ~Psalm 19:1

:

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: The GUT
And then we have the weightless, massless phenomena responsible for all societal achievement: Consciousness. And by that I refer to kind of consciousness capable of abstraction & self-awareness.

The blind-faith believing priests of materialism either admit they can't explain it, or proffer a lot of double-speak that essentially affirms they can't explain it but hope you don't notice. Doofy one-liners are also endemic to that type.

You glossed over the part where no one on this site or anywhere else in the world has in fact answered the mystery of consciousness and its causes or ultimate "purpose".

That is totally false. But it isn't false just for you. You're need to cast yourself into a group that includes "everyone" makes it easier for you because misery loves company.
The truth is that YOU haven't discovered your answers to your questions you mentioned. These things work on an individual basis.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

I see my comments struck some nerves. This is a perfect example of how people frequently get confused between consciousness and ego. Ego is the one that needs to assert itself and devise elaborate allegories to inflate its sense of relevance and protect its fragile self esteem. That's why these topics exist, a relentless quest to elevate the human race to demigod status.

a reply to: hopeisasound

Perhaps you're familiar with a somewhat similar story by the title "the gods must be crazy". Fascinating dissection of the human experience that does more or less the opposite of what I described above. It's an allegory for the absurdity of society.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

I see my comments struck some nerves. This is a perfect example of how people frequently get confused between consciousness and ego. Ego is the one that needs to assert itself and devise elaborate allegories to inflate its sense of relevance and protect its fragile self esteem. That's why these topics exist, a relentless quest to elevate the human race to demigod status.

a reply to: hopeisasound

Perhaps you're familiar with a somewhat similar story by the title "the gods must be crazy". Fascinating dissection of the human experience that does more or less the opposite of what I described above. It's an allegory for the absurdity of society.

Nah, I'm just referring to how folks sometimes use "we" when describing their own situation since it helps make them feel covered and shielded. Like the Borg collective. Not saying that is you in particular though.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

I didn't say anything resembling what you describe, nor did I say anything inaccurate.

The example provided of computation and software are evidence of humans struggling to replicate the natural majesty of physics and chemistry through the most primitive and uwieldy of tools. You can't build consciousness, it has to be born. You don't invent information, you translate it. You don't create worlds or species, you modify an existing one which already violates ethics of medicine and science. You don't OWN society, you submit your qualifications for review and wait to be honorably appointed to a position of leadership in that community, and only if there is a board of peers to supervise and enforce that relationship. Guess what you have if those factors don't exist.

And all the information theory in the world doesn't justify tyranny.

originally posted by: theatreboy
Excellent OP, S&F!

it has never made sense to me to believe this happened by random chance. I believe in God and intelligent design.

It is not even an argument I have anymore...if someone does not want to believe, there is nothing I can do to change their mind.

Thanks and what you say is true.

This is also why science discovered God Created the universe when they saw how fine tuned it was. Just look at the Cosmological Constant which is 1 part in 10^120. There was a recent paper where scientists didn't find the naturalness they were looking for.

We know intelligence can fine tune when it creates. We do it on a smaller scale because we're Created in the image and likeness of God.

So scientists saw this and said oh no, the universe looks like it was fine tuned for life. They now depend on a multiverse with a physical wave function where I can't make any choices. I only watch ESPN because there's a gazillion versions of me in the multiverse watching all of my other cable channels. This is also true for the billions of other people on the planet.

What makes more sense?

An intelligent mind fine tune tuned and Created the universe like we build things that gives us our civilization or a physical wave function that's making all my choices and the choices for a gazillion versions of me in the multiverse. How can I have a favorite food or a favorite movie if I'm subject to random, undefined splitting of a physical universal wave function?

What makes more sense?

God Designed DNA and encoded information on its sequence like we do with computers on a smaller scale or the impossible happened and a storage medium encoded its sequence with information and can reduce uncertainty and increase information despite the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

a reply to: neoholographic

What makes more sense, magic or genetic mutation? What makes more sense, humans are a recent member of the ape family or humans are demigods engineered to function as a therapy pet for a lonely wizard? What makes more sense, predicting the apocalypse or fabricating a society that entirely avoids the so called "end times" because that whole situation is unnecessarily violent and dramatic? What makes more sense, theocratic authoritarianism or a constitutional democracy?

What makes more sense?

How can I have a favorite food or a favorite movie if I'm subject to random, undefined splitting of a physical universal wave function?

What makes more sense?

Are you implying that because "random undefined splitting of a universal wave function" I shouldn't be able to choose what makes me happy? I have two words for you: false dichotomy.

originally posted by: The GUT
And then we have the weightless, massless phenomena responsible for all societal achievement: Consciousness. And by that I refer to kind of consciousness capable of abstraction & self-awareness.

The blind-faith believing priests of materialism either admit they can't explain it, or proffer a lot of double-speak that essentially affirms they can't explain it but hope you don't notice. Doofy one-liners are also endemic to that type.

Good points!

Think about what they're saying. They're saying that random mutations give sequence meaning!

How can anyone believe this? For example:

If I take the alphabet and scramble the letters, and the words "so what" appear in the midst of the scramble, the only reason "so what" has syntax and semantics is because intelligent humans gave the sequence of letters meaning.

With evolution, they're saying random mutations create new information. So, it would be like scrambling the alphabet and "so what" didn't have any syntax or semantics until it happened. So just scrambling the alphabet gave the sequence "so what" meaning!!

How can anyone that uses reason and logic accept this? It gets worse!

How can you create new information when there's a genetic code that limited to coding for 20 amino acids?

Random mutations aren't creating anything new. They would have to create a new 3 letter code to a new amino acid to give you anything new.

Here's an example:

Tom went to the store.

Now, say a point mutation occurs. You now get:

Tim went to the store.

This point mutation changes the meaning of the sentence but it's nothing new. A human mind has to first give syntax and semantics to the words Tim and Tom in order for them to be read properly by another human or machinery designed by a human.

Let's look at an example of a mutations that can cause damage:

Tom went to the store.

After mutations you get:

Tom wont th styrz

Here you have mutations that will not be read. THIS IS BECAUSE INTELLIGENCE HASNT FIRST GIVEN ANY MEANING TO THE SEQUENCE OF LETTERS." You also have mutations that are read but can cause damage and disease.

The point here is you don't create any new information. You're limited to the genetic code which codes for 20 amino acids. Just like you can't get any new information by scrambling the alphabet because an intelligent mind gave it syntax and semantics.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

What makes more sense, magic or genetic mutation? What makes more sense, humans are a recent member of the ape family or humans are demigods engineered to function as a therapy pet for a lonely wizard? What makes more sense, predicting the apocalypse or fabricating a society that entirely avoids the so called "end times" because that whole situation is unnecessarily violent and dramatic? What makes more sense, theocratic authoritarianism or a constitutional democracy?

What makes more sense?

Respectfully, everything is magic until you understand it. Every valid miracle of God could be scientifically understood if you fully understood science. We all have the same info do we not? It’s not like you have some hidden scientific knowledge that others are unaware of and visa versa. Everyone interprets the same info according to our own biases. No one is truly objective. That being said, how do we discover truth? Is reality subjective or objective?

originally posted by: hopeisasound

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

What makes more sense, magic or genetic mutation? What makes more sense, humans are a recent member of the ape family or humans are demigods engineered to function as a therapy pet for a lonely wizard? What makes more sense, predicting the apocalypse or fabricating a society that entirely avoids the so called "end times" because that whole situation is unnecessarily violent and dramatic? What makes more sense, theocratic authoritarianism or a constitutional democracy?

What makes more sense?

Respectfully, everything is magic until you understand it. Every valid miracle of God could be scientifically understood if you fully understood science. We all have the same info do we not? It’s not like you have some hidden scientific knowledge that others are unaware of and visa versa. Everyone interprets the same info according to our own biases. No one is truly objective. That being said, how do we discover truth? Is reality subjective or objective?

Thank you for the courteous reply.

Reality is objective. There's a whole encyclopedia worth of relationships or definitions that remains static and constant no matter how ardently you reject them. As your first remark indicates, magic is another word for uneducated. What you describe as subjective is an attempt to derive conclusions from inadequate data and the correct approach is to not formulate a conclusion until more data is organized as coherently as humanly possible.

Agendas tend to prematurely rush that process because the prize justifies the methods even if the methods are crap.

a reply to: neoholographic


Starred & Flagged!

I really like the explanation of the deck of cards and entropy.