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Perhaps we do have a right to the Americas. An amateur historical speculation.

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posted on Mar, 29 2022 @ 08:05 PM
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You're back to requiring proof from someone offering a speculative hypothesis. You're wasting my time.



posted on Mar, 30 2022 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
You're back to requiring proof from someone offering a speculative hypothesis.

What are you talking about? I don't remember requiring proof of anything, at least not recently.



posted on Mar, 30 2022 @ 08:59 PM
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originally posted by: ArMaPNo, I do not forget that, I only think that it only proves it is possible, not that it ever happened.



posted on Mar, 31 2022 @ 06:03 PM
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a reply to: Solvedit

That wasn't a request for anything, only my opinion.



posted on Mar, 31 2022 @ 06:36 PM
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The sea peoples were people that lived on the sea or boats as wayfarers the Americas were known to Ancient Egypt and had trade with them specifically the Southern portion due to the plants and herbs found in the embalming of many mummies.

People often forget that once one had a trade that another professed to them until they were equal that it became a lifelong pursuit... sea or wayfaring was and still is one of those. They didn't really think of it as piracy as if there were provisions needed then they plucked it off of trade ships like fruit as those were land based and helmed by people that lived in and had ports of call not those that live exclusively on boats/ships with no port of call or land base as a way of life not not set foot on land again.

People that did not live exclusively on boats and had port of calls came up with the term of piracy and started wars with those picking on those with ports and lands like fruit trees... they saw the seven seas as their domain their territory having forsaken or given up on land dwelling.

The idea that the seas could also be trade in their minds was greedy since they already had land to do that on and all the resources they needed to live where they were and if not could sympathize with the plucking when such a thing was needed... however it was not seen that way and greed on land and sea continued on with the concept of trade.

Skirting the land masses all around the globe and riding ocean currents was a way of life if someone managed in the 1200-1700s to leave a port and sail all the way around the horn of Africa and make it back to the original port it was an accomplishment of a lifetime as a sailor of the seven seas aka having sailed around the world... the world meant in their terms seeing land and never losing sight of it; not ocean crossing which with enough provisions they saw as much easier as the currents could cross them without a hoisted sail and only a manned rudder, so ocean crossing amounted to skirting til one got into the currents otherwise known as the trade winds which was a misnomer or inside joke as previously described(wind not required)

Having a right to the America... Um it(the middle part) is still called a "free country" is it not? Those without the conceptual lines in the dirt stuck in their heads only see America they don't see Canada they don't see the US and they don't see Mexico. If lines are required in seafaring or way fairing minds it is due to the concept of land ownership or the absolute control of all possible trade(for taxes and or other recompence of land dwellers) see north america middle america and south america not some silly idea that a rulership dictatorship or any other mental ship can own anything they want treat people any way they want and expect to keep it and others to follow suit in that sort of control as an unquestioned or challenged legacy.

My moms and real dads side are Islanders; my stepdads side are what get termed landlubbers. Both sides worked in and on the harvesting "crops" one sea and one land... I grew up learning how to do both as they worked for what they ate and sold the abundance of their labors as trade. Neither one is an easy life and looking at and associating with children that weren't plowing, planting, netting or potting that had no idea of those things was like being a fish out of water or crow away from the field.



posted on Mar, 31 2022 @ 07:53 PM
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originally posted by: CrowfootHaving a right to the America... Um it(the middle part) is still called a "free country" is it not?
My point was they may not have displaced people who had been there for 15,000 years.

The cultures we thought were indigenous may have replaced the people who were there before.

Research is needed to discover if they had somehow funded Genghis Khan or the Ottoman empire to wage war against the rest of the world. If those empires had figured out how to get the New World's gold, it would have funded a lot of mayhem.



posted on Apr, 1 2022 @ 12:41 AM
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a reply to: Solvedit

Nearly every Asian in the world today can be linked genetically to Genghis Khan as a relative meaning he spent a lot of time spreading his genes on a lot of different women. I only mention that factoid because he's the only factually known person to exist in history that can be sort called a genetic "father" as a single individual as science goes or Mongoloid... as for the Caucasoid and Negroid ones? Archeology has still have yet to find a Genghis among them... Although the Adam and Eve story is supposed to be sort of a birthing origin ...sticking with one woman wouldn't have produced anything more then 15 to 30 children(according to science) but not as many if he had several "Eves" in a harem sort of fashion like Genghis did producing into the hundreds or thousands over his lifetime with multiple partners.

Indigenous is basically the term for stopped migrating or following whatever herd it was as a sustainable food and livelihood source and settled into more permanent dwellings from trade becoming more of a source of livelihood. People from all over the world followed some sort of herding animal like the Ox meaning they all had to learn such a thing as a common source at some point but it is possible that some independently developed.

The Ottoman was the first to use germ warfare as in catapulting dead and diseased animals over the walls of fortresses having an immunity to the disease meant they had a lot of exposure to such a thing themselves and adapted out of it; sort of like the Indian Aghori that eats rotten things as a devotional practice... the wisdom of course like someone finally getting kungfu of painting the fence is not just painting the fence... there's a goal in the Sadhus mind for mastery and in the case of the Aghori it is the inability to become poisoned. Such a thing of course would allow the human species to spring back after some event as their genes against such things borne out of that would be stronger from the continuous exposure to it. The earth going through a few extinction level events means those people taken as spiritual are just preparing for the inevitable and since it will allow humanity to continue after? Are the only reason they are considered "holy".

The bubonic plague that's what the Ottomans had up their sleeve and using that diseased animal/human carcass full of it was what wiped out millions of people in a genocide. There are still some people that say the black death as it was called isn't the bubonic plague but that's what modern science accepted and teaches as the likely suspect for it. The rat flea has been cleared although it was seen as the source for a very long time. Of course the Aghori is probably no one to eat even though they as a practice sit on charnel grounds and places of cremation and eat human flesh as a practice since their biology even though they do not look diseased would likely be a cause of some horrendous outbreak if someone ate an aghori the same as aghori eat dead diseased people... it is forbidden among them to eat each other as part of the sect/cult.

As gross and horrendous as it sounds? It part of why the sea peoples wouldn't settle on islands and would sooner pluck from others than eat each other having had that as a past background and had or passed the wisdom from it; although without any proper fishing equipment or ability it is likely that people lost adrift in the ocean have resorting to eating each other in an attempt to say alive... but the aghori see eating flesh in equanimity; if you were to say eww gross and freak out they'd likely want to eat you knowing you do not see a cow or a pig or a chicken etc as something gross to eat just the same as human... and that's just part of their religious justification for the practice when all life is sacred but not treated or seen equally as precious...

Those that followed the herd would only eat what dropped dead from old age or got attacked from a predator attacking the herd and chasing it off otherwise they would harvest milk make butter and the herd didn't mind as they helped protect them those sorts of people didn't really see the ox or herd animal as any more or less important than any other member of their family.

If the concept of money and trade didn't develop then people would still be walking the migration routes with the herds and fending off whatever animals that attacked it as livelihood... as hiding out in a cave was the same thing as trying to defend oneself like a lone herd animal against whatever came to the cave looking... the funny thing is the "pry it from my cold dead hands." is the same thing seeing every house a cave or a trap to whomever wants to come along in a curious fashion I guess is a funny thing... but there's safety in numbers as a block is a herd of houses and a subdivision a herd of blocks...

So how has anything really changed in those millions of years other than the name and shape of things?





posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 09:03 AM
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originally posted by: ArMaPThird, there aren't any signs of the native Americans having any kind of previous knowledge of European things.
If the goal was to keep the natives interested in scouring riverbeds for gold, then Old World traders would have tried very hard to not let the New World natives have anything that would develop their technology.



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 09:06 AM
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originally posted by: ArMaP
"Organisations"? Only governments had enough money to pay for transatlantic expeditions, that's why Christopher Columbus asked first the Portuguese king and then the Spanish king to sponsor his (small) expedition, nobody had enough money for that.
So explain Polynesia. They spread across much further distances, found much smaller land masses, with much smaller craft.

As for not taking anything, that may work on a small scale, but people being people I'm sure some men would have taken some things to show back at home, and the more people and time this lasted the more likely it would be for something to "leak".
If it was important enough that no one find out where the gold was coming from, leaving things and taking things back might have been punishable by death.



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 09:42 AM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
If the goal was to keep the natives interested in scouring riverbeds for gold, then Old World traders would have tried very hard to not let the New World natives have anything that would develop their technology.

But they would have known other things, like clothes, utensils, language, etc.



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 09:49 AM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
So explain Polynesia. They spread across much further distances, found much smaller land masses, with much smaller craft.

I was talking about the situation in Europe, and the spreading of the Polynesians took more than 2000 years.


If it was important enough that no one find out where the gold was coming from, leaving things and taking things back might have been punishable by death.

Possible, but that may not be enough to stop people from bragging about what they have done, as people would do if they had gone to a place where nobody had gone before and were bringing lots of gold.



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 12:33 PM
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originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Solvedit
So explain Polynesia. They spread across much further distances, found much smaller land masses, with much smaller craft.

I was talking about the situation in Europe, and the spreading of the Polynesians took more than 2000 years.


If it was important enough that no one find out where the gold was coming from, leaving things and taking things back might have been punishable by death.

Possible, but that may not be enough to stop people from bragging about what they have done, as people would do if they had gone to a place where nobody had gone before and were bringing lots of gold.
Yes, it took 2,000 years. But they spread across much further distances, found much smaller land masses, with much smaller craft.

What makes you think the ancestors of the Guanches were just adventuresome enough to find the Canaries but not any more adventuresome?

Even as ship technology kept improving, even after they were confined to small islands where it is easy to use up all the room?

Do people brag about the formula for Coca-cola or Kentucky Fried Chicken?
edit on 9-4-2022 by Solvedit because: added information

edit on 9-4-2022 by Solvedit because: added information



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Solvedit
If the goal was to keep the natives interested in scouring riverbeds for gold, then Old World traders would have tried very hard to not let the New World natives have anything that would develop their technology.

But they would have known other things, like clothes, utensils, language, etc.
You have been exposed to other languages besides English and Portuguese. Did you immediately give up any thought of speaking English or Portuguese and start speaking the new languages?

Some researchers think there are strong signs of Old World languages in the New.

Native American cultures did and do weave.

Sailors need not have had all the skills necessary to teach how to make European or North African utensils, starting from mining the metal to working it.
edit on 9-4-2022 by Solvedit because: clarity



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
What makes you think the ancestors of the Guanches were just adventuresome enough to find the Canaries but not any more adventuresome?

The fact that there aren't any signs of them in Madeira or the Azores, the islands closest to them in the Atlantic.


Do people brag about the formula for Coca-cola or Kentucky Fried Chicken?

I don't understand, what people?



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
You have been exposed to other languages besides English and Portuguese. Did you immediately give up any thought of speaking English or Portuguese and start speaking the new languages?

That's not what I meant.
When people are exposed to other languages they do learn a few words, specially if they are the names of things they did not know before. In this case it would have been, for example, the name of the clothes the European wore and that were new to the American natives, or the name of their weapons. People do have a tendency to reuse the newly learned words if they see something similar, so they would already know what to call the boots or the trousers of the new arrivals.


Some researchers think there are strong signs of Old World languages in the New.

What kind of researchers, linguists?


Sailors need not have had all the skills necessary to teach how to make European or North African utensils, starting from mining the metal to working it.

No need to make them to know what they are and what they are called.



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 06:30 PM
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originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Solvedit
What makes you think the ancestors of the Guanches were just adventuresome enough to find the Canaries but not any more adventuresome?

The fact that there aren't any signs of them in Madeira or the Azores, the islands closest to them in the Atlantic.
So they didn't settle there. Maybe they were busy elsewhere. If their economy was not based on agriculture, what would they use the Azores or Madeira for? That is what the Portuguese settlers used them for.


Do people brag about the formula for Coca-cola or Kentucky Fried Chicken?

I don't understand, what people?
The people who know the formulas. Do they boast about them? Do they tell their employees enough so that the employees could give the formula away? No. They keep it a secret. So might any captains of any vessels trading with the New World. They kept their trade secrets.



posted on Apr, 9 2022 @ 06:34 PM
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originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Solvedit
You have been exposed to other languages besides English and Portuguese. Did you immediately give up any thought of speaking English or Portuguese and start speaking the new languages?

That's not what I meant.
When people are exposed to other languages they do learn a few words, specially if they are the names of things they did not know before. In this case it would have been, for example, the name of the clothes the European wore and that were new to the American natives, or the name of their weapons. People do have a tendency to reuse the newly learned words if they see something similar, so they would already know what to call the boots or the trousers of the new arrivals.
You are assuming what linguists would have found if they exhaustively studied New World languages in 1492.

Of course the native languages have words for Old World things now. The only question is, when did they acquire them? That is impossible to prove.


Some researchers think there are strong signs of Old World languages in the New.

What kind of researchers, linguists?


Sailors need not have had all the skills necessary to teach how to make European or North African utensils, starting from mining the metal to working it.

No need to make them to know what they are and what they are called.
Of course native languages have words for European or North African utensils. Of course they do. The only question is, when did they acquire them?

Tell me, can you cite research proving the languages of the New World had no words for Old World things in the decade or so just after the first official contact with Columbus?



posted on Apr, 10 2022 @ 06:56 AM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
So they didn't settle there. Maybe they were busy elsewhere. If their economy was not based on agriculture, what would they use the Azores or Madeira for? That is what the Portuguese settlers used them for.

We also used them as intermediary points for further expansion.


The people who know the formulas. Do they boast about them? Do they tell their employees enough so that the employees could give the formula away? No. They keep it a secret. So might any captains of any vessels trading with the New World. They kept their trade secrets.

Thanks, I understand it now.
But I think it's a different situation, as Coca-cola or Kentucky Fried Chicken are known, even if the way they are made is a secret. That would be the same as other people knowing that there was gold coming from another place but not knowing where it was coming from.

As a kind of a PS to the above, have you ever seen any indication of the source of the money paying the Ottoman Empire's conquest? Or any indication that they needed more than the known sources?



posted on Apr, 10 2022 @ 07:01 AM
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originally posted by: Solvedit
You are assuming what linguists would have found if they exhaustively studied New World languages in 1492.

I'm not.
There are records of the first interactions between Europeans and the natives of the Americas, and in those there aren't any references (that I know) of them having previous knowledge of European words or objects. In the case of Christopher Columbus, that thought he had landed in Asia, that would have been an important clue, as Asia had previous contact with Europe.


What kind of researchers, linguists?

Do you have a direct answer to this question?


Tell me, can you cite research proving the languages of the New World had no words for Old World things in the decade or so just after the first official contact with Columbus?

See above.



posted on Apr, 10 2022 @ 07:57 AM
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originally posted by: ArMaPAs a kind of a PS to the above, have you ever seen any indication of the source of the money paying the Ottoman Empire's conquest? Or any indication that they needed more than the known sources?
The timing. Their invasion of Europe progressed no further after the Spanish took Central America.



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