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Suggestions for stopping the war

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posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 02:22 PM
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Well, Zelensky has completely rejected Putin's three conditions for a ceasefire:

LONDON (Reuters) -Russia has told Ukraine it is ready to halt military operations "in a moment" if Kyiv meets a list of conditions, the Kremlin spokesman said on Monday.

Dmitry Peskov said Moscow was demanding that Ukraine cease military action, change its constitution to enshrine neutrality, acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory, and recognise the separatist republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states.

Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin

What does "independent state" mean in this sense? That they are their own nation? Or still Ukraine, but self-governed? I don't understand that and haven't found anyone explaining it.

There's an unsubstantiated rumor that --

...Russia proposed (1) Zelensky remains pro forma president but Russia appoints Boiko as PM

Ukraine Says "No Significant Results" In 3rd Round Of Truce Talks; UN Reports Over 400 Civilians Killed

That would be a dealbreaker for me too. But couldn't Zelensky accept the other conditions (for a ceasefire) and reject that one?



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 02:45 PM
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Update from the second link above:

Update(1335ET): As expected given the fiercely accusatory words from the Ukrainian side going into Monday’s third round of talks with Russia, Kiev has said that “no significant” results have come out of the ceasefire meeting. Top Ukrainian negotiator Mykhaylo Podolyak has still held out the likelihood for more negotiations to came, as he announced the two sides “will continue intensive consultations” toward a possible truce.

After Kiev previously blasted Russia’s latest announcements of four new humanitarian evacuation corridors, Podolyak said upon the close of Monday’s meeting that, “There are small positive subductions in improving the logistics of humanitarian corridors,” according to Bloomberg. However, the Ukrainian negotiating team said that this point it’s still “too early to speak of anything positive.”



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

Thanks very much for bringing some objective facts and information to this thread. I believe that's what we need.

Then maybe we can have at least an informed opinion on the matter.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 03:13 PM
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Far be it for me to tell folks how to deal with this, though I can have an opinion. But ultimately it's up to the Ukrainian people to decide what to do. All I can do is hope for the best for them.

It reminds me of the Israel Palestine issue. I wish the Palestinians would make a deal and get their independent country in a two-state solution, but that’s up to them too.

It seems Russia wants to make Ukraine like Palestine is to the Jewish state.

Here, I wished that could have been settled before but that’s no longer the case.

So, according to this information above little progress is being made in these talks. That's unfortunate.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: Boadicea

Thanks very much for bringing some objective facts and information to this thread. I believe that's what we need.

Then maybe we can have at least an informed opinion on the matter.


Glad to do it and contribute a little something a worthy thread!

Thank you for starting it



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 03:45 PM
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originally posted by: peaceinoutz
Far be it for me to tell folks how to deal with this, though I can have an opinion. But ultimately it's up to the Ukrainian people to decide what to do. All I can do is hope for the best for them.


I agree. I am wondering if the question of Donetsk and Lugansk will ultimately be put to a vote of the people like Crimea. I'm not sure if it would be a nationwide election, or just the people of Donetsk and Lugansk. I would think that could be discussed and negotiated -- after a ceasefire is established at least.

That seems to be where the most civil trouble is, as the Russia-sympathizers are reportedly harassed and attacked by Ukrainian forces.


It reminds me of the Israel Palestine issue. I wish the Palestinians would make a deal and get their independent country in a two-state solution, but that’s up to them too.

It seems Russia wants to make Ukraine like Palestine is to the Jewish state.


Not a bad analogy.


So, according to this information above little progress is being made in these talks. That's unfortunate.


Let's hope there's more going on than we know of. Perhaps Zelensky is playing hardass so Putin doesn't see him as weak... perhaps Zelensky (or someone else) will get creative and come up with something acceptable to both. I don't know. As long as no one shuts down communication and negotiations entirely, there's hope for progress.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: peaceinoutz


"little progress is being made in these talks"


Because russia is still insisting on stealing what isn't russia's.

Because russia is still trying to pretend that what russia just did isn't 100% evil.

Because russia is still under the false impression that anyone on the planet cares about anything russia says about anything.



But mostly because our Russian Patriot Friends are starting to understand what putin just did, and appear to be rather furious about it.





posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 03:59 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea


Did the russians promise to not attack the fleeing civilians in those humanitarian corridors again?

Why would anyone believe them?

About anything.




posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:11 PM
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Will End War In A Moment If…” Putin Lays Out Demands, Will Ukraine Accept Russia’s Terms?

A report on the ongoing negotiations stating the foreign ministers of Russia and Ukraine will meet in Turkey on the 10th



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:16 PM
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a reply to: peaceinoutz


Is russia ready to surrender yet?

Otherwise nothing is likely to change by meeting again.

Zelinsky and the planet already rejected (laughed at) putin's 'terms'.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:16 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

At least they're talking! That's a start and that hard-nosed demands of Putin are of course the most extreme demands.


I think the demand of a Ukraine, not joining NATO may be tough and the sanctioning of what Russia has taken already.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:19 PM
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I think we as Americans need to honor our promise that was made to Mikail Gorbachev by Secretary of State James Baker in 1991 that Ukraine would never be part of NATO.

Or are we liars now?

www.msnbc.com...

In 1990, the West led the Soviets to believe NATO would not expand further eastward across Europe in exchange for Germany reunification and the agreement that the new Germany would be a NATO member. Most famously, U.S. Secretary of State James Baker once assured Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev that the NATO alliance would move “not one inch eastward” in exchange for this agreement, but as the late Princeton University scholar Stephen Cohen pointed out in 2018, this pledge was in fact made multiple times by several Western countries.

These assurances were not honored, and NATO has expanded eastward over the years to include many more countries, all the way up to Russia’s borders.

“It is the broken promise to Gorbachev that lingers as America’s original sin,” Cohen said then.
edit on 7-3-2022 by Brassmonkey because: Grammar



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:22 PM
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a reply to: PatriotGames4u

It's not usually the aggressor who surrenders. They just withdraw and go back to where they came from.

What might happen is Putin sees he may have an insurgency on his hands that he cant handle, along with the economic destruction of the sanctions, and the pariah status of Russia he has elicited by this attack may force him to stop. He may need a face-saving gesture.


Also, he might realize he may be obligated to rebuild Ukraine he is destroying and see that with the sanctions he might not even be able to restore his won country let alone Ukraine.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:28 PM
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originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: PatriotGames4u

It's not usually the aggressor who surrenders. They just withdraw and go back to where they came from.

What might happen is Putin sees he may have an insurgency on his hands that he cant handle, along with the economic destruction of the sanctions, and the pariah status of Russia he has elicited by this attack may force him to stop. He may need a face-saving gesture.


Also, he might realize he may be obligated to rebuild Ukraine he is destroying and see that with the sanctions he might not even be able to restore his won country let alone Ukraine.



Wrong.

The aggressor FREQUENTLY ends up surrendering.

(hitler and tojo anyone?)

But you're over target on the rest.

The only question is whether putin is ready to surrender yet.

Because it WILL happen.

Though he obviously wasn't ready today with those fantasy land 'terms'.




posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:39 PM
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a reply to: Brassmonkey




I think we as Americans need to honor our promise that was made to Mikail Gorbachev by Secretary of State James Baker in 1991 that Ukraine would never be part of NATO.


I don't personally believe that. Russia should have gotten that in writing. No international security arrangements of this degree of importance that I know of are ever based on any handshakes. That's got to be official and in writing.

Particularly over many administrations.

The only event I know of where a secret deal may have been struck by an underhanded word-of-mouth promise (and even that may have had an unknown signature somewhere) was the agreement in 1962 that the Russians remove the nukes from Cuba and the US months later( which wasn’t admitted at the time) would remove nukes from Turkey. But that was between current administrations. Apparently, they quietly removed those Turkey nukes long after the crises faded away. And removed them also from Italy.



In a separate deal, which remained secret for more than twenty-five years, the United States also agreed to remove its nuclear missiles from Turkey.

www.jfklibrary.org...
So, yeah, secret deals are sometimes made but this one is doubtful to be true since anything over many administrations wouldn't obligate all of those presidents without something in writing.



posted on Mar, 7 2022 @ 10:45 PM
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a reply to: PatriotGames4u




The aggressor FREQUENTLY ends up surrendering


I'm referring to a particular battle not the entire war over many years as WWII was. The battle here is particularly the Russian assault on Ukraine. Sure, if this war went on for years and Russia lost that's another story. As they withdrew from Afghanistan, in the 90s, and as the US withdrew from Afghanistan recently, and in Vietnam in 75. But as of now, that doesn't apply since Russia as far as we know is not necessarily losing this war. I wish they were, and maybe they are but that's not apparent at his point.



posted on Mar, 8 2022 @ 06:29 AM
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originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: Boadicea

At least they're talking! That's a start...


Yes and it's a damn good start -- if both parties are willing to listen and act. I don't think Zelensky has any intention of doing so, however. He wants to fight... and that means more war and more death and injury and misery.


...and that hard-nosed demands of Putin are of course the most extreme demands.


Historically speaking, I don't think Putin's demands are that extreme. In fact, if anything, it's Ukraine (and the other western nations) making the extreme demands by ignoring long-term agreements and understandings. Well, with one caveat, in that if Putin is demanding that Zelensky give up his power to a Russia-appointed PM, that's extreme. But that's still a big "if" at this point.

As far as the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk (I think I spelled those right?), and Putin wanting them to be independent states, it seems to be a compromise of sorts on Putin's part. He hasn't asked for them to be returned to Russia, but to be made independent states, "Republics," as I recall, creating a buffer zone so to speak between the hostile Ukraine forces and Russia. This "solution" seems to benefit both Russia, and the Russian-sympathizing people (many of Russian heritage), and the Ukrainian forces terrorizing them these many years.


I think the demand of a Ukraine, not joining NATO...


This is one of the historical promises to Russia that is being broken, and I understand Russia's problem with this. I think a decent compromise would be for Ukraine to agree not to join NATO which is a military organization, but to insist on being able to join the EU for economic benefits (with the EU's acceptance, of course).

There are many experts who say that NATO -- which was formed as a defensive military organization to defend against aggressions by the Soviet Union -- should have been dissolved with the falling of the Soviet Union. To some, it's mere existence is an insult and aggression against Russia.


...may be tough and the sanctioning of what Russia has taken already.


I've seen a few suggestions around that part of the conditions could include Russia paying restitution to Ukraine via Russia's profit sharing from the oil transported through Ukraine pipelines, and similar suggestions. This could help refinance and rebuild Ukraine's military and infrastructure and housing, and so on.

It seems that Zelensky has been emboldened and empowered to keep making war... Ceasefires and treaties only work when both parties want them to work. I'm not seeing that with Zelensky. Exactly the opposite.

But as long as they are still talking, and other nations are willing to mediate, there's hope. I will hold that thought in my heart. And keep praying!



posted on Mar, 8 2022 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

Hard-nosed demands are always on both sides of this kind of negotiation.
I have always said Russia has a legit beef but a war IMO wasn’t justified.
These leaders have always been brain and soul dead as history records, when it comes to human beings they are supposed to rule.



posted on Mar, 8 2022 @ 02:15 PM
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originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: Boadicea

Hard-nosed demands are always on both sides of this kind of negotiation.
I have always said Russia has a legit beef but a war IMO wasn’t justified.


Agreed 100%.


These leaders have always been brain and soul dead as history records, when it comes to human beings they are supposed to rule.


I keep thinking, "When you're the hammer (Russia), everything is a nail." It's the old KGB hardline mindset. It's all about might makes right, so if Putin feels Russia is offended, then he's going to wield his might to make it "right." Life and limb be damned.

Unfortunately, it seems Putin isn't the only one thinking like this...



posted on Mar, 8 2022 @ 02:42 PM
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a reply to: peaceinoutz

Maybe -- just maybe! -- our hopes are closer to being realized:

Zelensky Ready To 'Discuss & Find Compromise' On Crimea, No Longer Insists On NATO Membership

Update(12:38ET): President Zelensky's 14-hour old ABC News interview (which we detailed hours ago below) is finally getting widespread distribution and is being repackaged as a significant nod to Moscow on what's been Putin's core issue he cited as justification for launching the war:

In another apparent nod aimed at placating Moscow, Zelensky said he is open to "compromise" on the status of two breakaway pro-Russian territories that President Vladimir Putin recognized as independent just before unleashing the invasion on February 24.


"I'm talking about security guarantees," Zelensky said, explaining that Ukraine is now open for dialogue on these central Russian security demands in order to stop the war.

If NATO is taken off the table, then the only international sticking point would be membership in the EU to be worked out. Leaving the civil issues in Donetsk and Lugansk....

But this is a good start!

ETA: Darn it! I meant to post this entire quote above...

"I’m talking about security guarantees. I think items regarding temporarily occupied territories and unrecognized republics that have not been recognized by anyone but Russia, these pseudo-republics. But we can discuss and find the compromise on how these territories will live on. What is important to me is how the people in those territories are going to live who want to be part of Ukraine."

edit on 8-3-2022 by Boadicea because: (no reason given)



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