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I need a theoretical physicist, please.

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posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 12:00 PM
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Question about Astrophysical Radio Observatories Technology:

I am an uneducated person with a hard to google/understand question.

If you were to listen to a radio that is heading towards a black hole you would note that the sound from it gets lower in octave and the message slows down. To play this how it would sound in our timeframe we need to compress this signal to hear it in the correct octave and speed it would have originally been delivered. This effect also takes place while trying to view far away objects because the light spectrum has been stretched. If we needed to view a planet from very far away in our visible light spectrum we need to compress this signal.

If we had all the data an astrophysical radio observatory recorded since its inception, is it possible to compress this from the start of data collection to the current date into our timeframe to see if anything coherent comes out?

Furthermore, can we alter an incoming signal to read it AS IF we had been detecting it for a very long time?
If a planet had been around so long ago that we would have needed to have collected 200 years worth of doppler stretching, can we skew our instruments to produce this image?

If this can be figured out, could we then view things in exotic frames of reference. For example, if dark matter causes the fabric of space to come out of it rather than move into it, we can infer that the radio physics would need to be read differently to be viewed coherently. In our matter the closer you get to it the slower you accumulate events. Eventually you can be in a dense enough grouping of matter that to an outside frame of reference you never accumulate another event (event horizon). In dark matter the closer you get to it the faster you accumulate events.

One could infer that in the spots we are seeing dark matter/energy vast amounts of events have taken place, because in our gravitational reference, or inertial reference time slows down, and in dark matter it speeds up. What if we needed to play a 5 minute voice clip, or video image, that needed thousands of years worth of collecting to be compressed coherently into our reference?

Is it possible to mess with what we see, or perceive as dark matter/energy and compress or dilate it to account for this relativistic difference?

Thank you very much if you've taken the time to read this.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 12:15 PM
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a reply to: Exit89

DBCowboy will be along shortly.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 01:05 PM
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originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
a reply to: Exit89

DBCowboy will be along shortly.






edit on 6-3-2022 by IAMTAT because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: Exit89
I hope you get an answer from a real physicist, but I'll try. The James-Webb telescope is designed to look at this specific stretched wavelength of light. I recall an article that had a fact of how many photons of light per second/minute it will pick up on the distant targets, and the number was almost incomprehensibly small, maybe a couple dozen photons per hour. It has to focus on these areas for longer time frames to pick up enough photons to compile into an 'image'. A video clip would take much more observation time to compile. I wish I had the link but unfortunately I don't.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 01:49 PM
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I am not a theoretical physicist nor a regular physicist and I have zero answers for what you are trying to find information about. I am only answering to admit I have things I have very little knowledge about. Good luck getting an answer to what you want to find out about. Like was mentioned, DC will probably be on sooner or later and probably make a comment that is probably more relevant than a physicist can give you.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 01:57 PM
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a reply to: Exit89

Yes



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 02:08 PM
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a reply to: IAMTAT

lol



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 03:00 PM
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originally posted by: Exit89

If you were to listen to a radio that is heading towards a black hole........



First, wouldn't you need to understand the properties of the black hole?

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."
Carl Sagan.

.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: Exit89

I think what you are asking is like detecting the electromagnetic drive on Red October. Speed up or compress the playback to compensate for time stretch and see what comes out. I don't know if it has been tried but it is a very good question.


edit on 3 6 2022 by beyondknowledge because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: Exit89

Doppler Effect

This effect is very curious, and implies many things physicists don't like to discuss. For example, the Doppler effect requires a universal medium to work. This medium is what carries basics constants of reality according to physics, which are things like 'the speed of light' and the 'permeability of free space'.

The only reason science accepts the expanding universe idea, is because this Doppler shift has been detected in atomic spectral lines. That is, the effect is measured by the absence of certain bands of radiation, and how they are shifted from our relative direct observations. When you consider this under a real understanding of physics, you come to understand that the doppler shift is a relation between the 'phase velocity' and the 'medium velocity'. This is to say, the frequency is compressed or decompressed. For those attuned to many areas of physics, they might understand this compression and expansions of frequency, as 'damping' and a counter intuitive concept which is the reverse of damping (this can be thought of as negative friction).

To get this understanding, you have to consider an aspect of optics and EMF known as 'Refraction'. This buzz word gets tossed around all over the place, but the simplest way to understand it is as 'relative damping' or 'relative optical friction'. A light beam bends in water because it slows down. Light cannot slow down per the medium's speed, but rather the 'phase velocity'. This change in phase velocity is a change in frequency. It is why things sound different under water.

When this change happens on a boundary that is not perpendicular (flat relative to the wave's direction), the direction changes as well.

In this understanding, the Doppler effect can be thought of as a linear change in the permeability of space, coincident with the beam. There is no practical difference in the apparent result if you are moving away from the light at 30% of its speed, or if the light was in water and we were stationary. The phase velocity is reduced by 30% relative to the observer in both instances. For light that seems to be 'moving away from us', this can also be replicated by a light source inside water, and an observer outside water.

Back to the spectral bands, this is how they 'correct' the signal like your post talks about. However, this is problematic, because the relationship is a non-linear system with a linear component. These are called 'discontinuous functions' in math, and often have 2 solutions for any result (in a 2nd order system like this). Since they cannot use the doppler effect to tell if earth is moving, or if the light is moving, the solution is to take the measurement in opposing directions. The result of this is that the math says both directions move away from us (Frequency is decompressed to a lower frequency, or rather the phase velocity is slower), and this is the entire premise behind the expanding universe theory.

The problem here is that light generated in a material with a lower index of refraction than what we measure from will give the same result. A field of study known as 'meta materials' has created such properties, which are known as 'negative index of refraction' materials. Such things increase the speed of light (purple shift) when entering, and decrease the speed of light when leaving (red shift). Such materials are being studied for their ability to cloak objects from detection by bending waves around them.

This phenomenon was also discovered in the ocean with sonar. Salinity and temperature make a similar non linear substance, and allow sonar to bend in ways that create 'invisible zones'. There are public domain articles about this topic going back to 2010.

Dark matter is merely the attempt to correct for the disparity between optical calculations and mass-gravity calculations. Mainly that optics says everything is expanding and moving faster, but gravity says this is impossible. A new modern solution is emerging in the concept of the 'electric universe', but as it is a paradigm shift, the waters are not smooth.

TL
R Einstein told us that our understanding of reality by the measure of optics would not resolve the 'multiple solution' issues that arise from optical measurements like the Doppler shift.

Hope this helps.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 03:34 PM
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Thank you,

I know how some of it works i just wonder what the limits of the tech are.

If radio signals stretch as they enter lesser gravity fields, would we assume that they would compress when they leave dark matter fields? And then stretch as they get into matter gravity again causing some weird refraction and messery?

We may find that radio from dark matter needs to be stretched out and account for the extra time accumulated ?
Im confused.


a reply to: SouthernForkway26



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 03:47 PM
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Thank you very much i really appreciate such an in depth response.

There is no attitude in this sentence, but I would have hoped I demonstrated a rudimentary knowledge of what you said. I beleive i followed your explanation, but i may be dimmer than the standard candle.

I think if i could use layman words to explain my question further it would be this:

If we heard a voice clip that red shifted it would be slow and low octave. So we conpress it and speed it up to make it normal.

Does this mean if we wanted to listen to this voice clip and it blue shifted would we need to expand the signal and slow it way the heck down?

I dont really understand the refraction part because im having trouble imagining at what point this radiation would enter a different medium. I think in my mind it just blends from one relativity zone to the next and the gravitational or dark matter energy fields just deal with it. When we look at dark matter is it fuzzy at the edges or a straight up hard line?





a reply to: Nodrak



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 03:59 PM
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No.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:01 PM
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I want to add another crazy layer to this question if i may.


Can the Casimir effect cause White-holes? And this is where we see dark matter and energy formations?

This question is probably so far out of the realm, but what if matter gravity causes a negative pressure ( if you will) effect that pulls matter out of the other dimension ( whatever that means )?

a reply to: Exit89



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:04 PM
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edit on 6-3-2022 by whyamIhere because: Trying to be less abrasive. Wife says so...



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: Exit89


Does this mean if we wanted to listen to this voice clip and it blue shifted would we need to expand the signal and slow it way the heck down?


Yes this is exactly how it works. Air is defined as having very little ability to shift the speed of light (1.0002 refraction). Because of this, we can take 2 measurements on earth, from a stationary place and a stationary source. We can verify that a stationary source on both sides of a receiver will have no shift, and thus they are stationary to each-other.

As a wave travels through space, it hits atoms and gets absorbed. The frequency of this wave that gets absorbed is related to the energy required to alter electron orbits. These happen in things called 'Quanta'. In math terms, thees are just whole numbers.

Hydrogen has a value that corresponds to a ~1420 Mhz. Since most of the universe is hydrogen, this 'gap' in light is very common, and is used to measure the shift and other effects. It gets complicated really fast since a 'light ray' is really a combined result of many sources averaged together. The wider the gap in the spectrum, the different these sources were (mainly temperature).

It is understandable that refraction is not intuitive, it is arguably not fully understood by leading edge science even still. It can help to look at it as a picture. If I stretch the picture and send it to you, you would have to compress it (or reverse the stretch). The 'spectral lines' in this case is the concept that a pixel is a square, and we would notice that the details of the picture are not squares.

The integer nature of quantum mechanics allows us to see when things are 'bent' in much the same way we see the pixels are stretched. When you observe a distant signal for a long time, that is similar to increasing the resolution of a picture. We are getting more information density because we are getting more information total.

If you swing by en.wikipedia.org... and look at the lines, and then imagine I sent you one of those pictures, but I moved the lines left or right. With some clever math and/or trial and error, you would eventually be able to figure out which was the original image, and then you can calculate the amount of distortion.

The blackhole example is much like a sonic boom. This is where the phase velocity either equals 0 (moving away) or the phase velocity approaches infinity (sonic boom). Both are what some scientists might call 'undefined behavior', but that is only so because they are using a simplified method to describe them.



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:19 PM
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She Sells Sea Shells.
a reply to: Nodrak



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:21 PM
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Bro, i really appreciate you.

I understand refraction sort of. I even read about how some dude used neon gas to separate light through a glass prism, noticed large gaps in the spectrum, and came up with quantum tunneling. I think he called electrons quants...? Not important.

So the question is if we CAN stretch and compress images, with some trial and error should we not be able to stretch and slow incoming EMR to see what came from dark matter blobs?

And also could we compress incoming EMR significantly enough that we could see something that has red shifted in an unfathomable amount and we are veiwing extremely far in the past?

Sorry, this has sort of become two questions because one is about the limits of our tech currently and the other is some craziness about dark matter.



a reply to: Nodrak



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:26 PM
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originally posted by: Exit89
If we had all the data an astrophysical radio observatory recorded since its inception, is it possible to compress this from the start of data collection to the current date into our timeframe to see if anything coherent comes out?

Furthermore, can we alter an incoming signal to read it AS IF we had been detecting it for a very long time?
If a planet had been around so long ago that we would have needed to have collected 200 years worth of doppler stretching, can we skew our instruments to produce this image?


The timing difference works the opposite of that.
Relativity looks at an observer's frame of reference.

An observer from earth looking at object falling into black hole sees a clock on the object ticking ever more slowly until it's about to stop completely when the wavelengths get red-shifted so far they can no longer be detected.

An observer falling into the black hole looking toward earth and the rest of the universe sees those clocks ticking faster and faster until as they appriach the event horizon, they can see enormous lengths of time in the outside universe compressed into what is from their perspective a very short time.


One could infer that in the spots we are seeing dark matter/energy vast amounts of events have taken place, because in our gravitational reference, or inertial reference time slows down, and in dark matter it speeds up. What if we needed to play a 5 minute voice clip, or video image, that needed thousands of years worth of collecting to be compressed coherently into our reference?
That would be one of the challenges of sending a probe into a black hole. We would need a really long time to collect the final data, but realistically there are other problems. When the signal gets stretched that far, it's very low energy and difficult to detect, so that would probably be a bigger problem than having to wait thousands of years.


Is it possible to mess with what we see, or perceive as dark matter/energy and compress or dilate it to account for this relativistic difference?
One thing astrophysicists do is take the light coming to earth and calculate how much it's been bent by dark matter, which can be used to create dark matter maps. It's thought that most dark matter is not in black holes, though some percentage of it is, probably the minority of it.

Scientists release best-ever dark matter map


originally posted by: Exit89
I want to add another crazy layer to this question if i may.


Can the Casimir effect cause White-holes? And this is where we see dark matter and energy formations?

This question is probably so far out of the realm, but what if matter gravity causes a negative pressure ( if you will) effect that pulls matter out of the other dimension ( whatever that means )?
Modern physics is about making models of how we think the universe works, then using the models to make predictions, and then testing the models by seeing if observations and experiments match the predictions or not. If you want to make sense out of that question, that's how you would do it, meaning, state what the model would predict, then state what observations would either verify or reject the model. As stated, I don't think there's enough information presented to do that yet.

edit on 202236 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Mar, 6 2022 @ 04:40 PM
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But.
a reply to: Arbitrageur



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