Is Neo Nazis a Russian covert operation.. how could we be so blind ?

a reply to: ColdWisdom

Those Ukrainian neo-nazi's that are said to be Russian proxies have been and are currently fighting with Ukraine against Russia. Who has armed them to fight who?

I said yesterday that I don't see what the big deal is. Putin orchestrated this the western way. He backed radicals to cause instability, now he is going in to "fix" the instability. From my perspective that seems to be considered the proper way.

He should have created more instability in the interior rather than the border region, but doesn't that suggest he doesn't have much influence beyond the border?

The orchestration behind Ukraine suggests this has been planned for a long time. Putin apparently sending in untrained undersourced troops suggests either he thought there was more in Ukraine willing, or that he is holding back for something bigger.

Nato and western countries obviously want to be involved and personally I believe already have been more than what is stated. Seems logical to me that some Mercs going in are actually being helped by governments and are probably heavily involved in logistics.

There is a lot more going on than just the war between Russia and Ukraine.


I just wonder where China is going to fit in all this, while they may not mind a subdued Russia they don't want their influence to dissapear. If this thing pops off like some are hoping there is no way they don't back Russia, so they may become an aggressor now to take advantage of the distraction.

I'm not sayin Putin is bad i'm just saying he is doing what nearly every other country, political party, idealogy, corporation, any group, and most individuals are doing. Everyone is trying to obtain control over more resources, that is the game we all facilitate. Some just do it more covertly, and with a better and more infuential PR team.

When i'm standing in a steaming pile of $hit created by others it's really hard to be distracted by the steaming pile of $hit others are pointing at.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: Boadicea

Take a moment and read links too.. i´ll leave you with that.

How very condescending. And quite the cop out. I directly addressed your claims with additional information and asked a reasonable question regarding your OP.

I have read some of the links... and plenty of others doing my own research... as well as your excerpts, which also cite Russian neo-Nazis forming and joining the Azov Battalion in Ukraine, fighting against Russia.

So I ask again: What is "baffling" about Russia having a problem with neo-Nazis -- especially Russian neo-Nazis -- fighting against Russia on behalf of Ukraine???

And how could this be a "covert" operation unless Ukraine is part of it? Why else would Ukraine make these "covert" Russian agents part of its army? And how does these "covert" Russian agents fighting and killing Russians under guise of defending Ukraine serve Russia's best interests???

It seems to me that at best and at worst, both Russia and Ukraine are quite happy to employ neo-Nazis when those neo-Nazis are serving their best interests (nationalism), but not so much when they aren't. Neither has the moral high ground here.

neo-nazi's Russian or Ukrainian are not attached to or aligned with either nation.... that's why they are drawn together as nazis'

the neo-nazis' are public, one step more obscured are the lone wolf Anarchists who may have loose ties with the nazi's but only tenuous ties and only for very deep reasons that stem from a hatred base of reasons...


~my stab at profiling~

a reply to: Boadicea

Boad, for me it is seeing a lot of reruns.

No, I am also not surprised by either party having extremists (of any stripe) in their military organization. The guy who wrote a history of the last 100 years or so in eastern Europe didn't title the book "Bloodlands" for nothing.

But the presence of those units doesn't make me think either Ukraine or Russia are fascist states. They are one facet of a complex object.

Ever hear of the "Whites" in the Russian Civil War? They were the ones who opposed the Bolsheviks. Here is what I mean by "reruns". By the 1940s, there was quite a community of these exiled "Whites" in Yugoslavia. When the Germans took over Yugoslavia, the formed several regiments of "Whites" to fight any Yugoslavs who opposed the Nazi conquest. So yeah, another example of Russians serving Hitler's regime. And why were Russian Slavs allowing themselves to be used to fight southern ("Yugo-") Slavs? Oh yeah, they didn't like communists. Kind of a weird mirror of Putin declaring that he is saving Ukraine from local Nazis.

It is because of such things that I am averse to black and white views like ("those Ukrainian fascists!!"). Far too lacking in nuance to be a description of reality. Likewise, people running to declare Putin is some kind of secret "white hat" refuse to consider that such a worldview means little to Putin. He is doing things to take care of himself (like many our politicians), and mixed in with that is a bizarre worldview that is anchored to an era gone for 35 years now. The guy is a clock-winder, and is now finding out that trying to wind the clock backwards leads to lots of dead people. Whether that deters him or not is to be seen.

Cheers

a reply to: ColdWisdom

I'm not trying to make Putin out to be evil (and he certainly wouldn't see himself that way, none of the people marked out as 'bad guys' in history saw themselves as bad people).

But something I noted right away is that Putin's invasion was a HUGE gift to the embarrassment the USA has as a presidential administration. Very few people are worried about Biden anymore. The image machine will do its level best to make him look like a firm, responsible leader. And anyone questioning that will open themselves up to accusations of being agents for Putin.

Bang. Just like that, Vlad got Joe off the hook.

Vlad's invasion also has taken the heat off that awful group of colluders who conspired to crush entire economies and demoralize many societies as a so-called response to a virus which was made to look like a world-ending event by people who should have known far better.

Just based on those side effects, I would question the notion of "Putin as good guy". My take is that he is in his own world, sort of a "Putin as Putin guy". Nothing more and nothing less, but all the same, a challenge that other countries ignore at their peril.

Cheers

a reply to: Boadicea

To be fair they do seem to be anarchist for the most part. If the fighting were to cease they may end up fighting against Ukraine for the control of the border region, but as you say are currently fighting on behalf of Ukraine.

Putin may have large factions in Russia and thus not being truthful with his reason for invasion, but that doesn't take away from them having a rather large representation in Kyiv on the annual day of the defender.

How could they not celebrate them when they are living in shelled out bulidings away from their families protecting your border just because their reasons are personal rather than national? No matter their reason what they were/are doing is still to their benefit.

originally posted by: Spacespider
The majority of the Russian people do not want this war, Russia is controlled by a small group in the top. Putin and his former KGB friends by his side.

The majority of the 'American' people do not want this war, 'America' is controlled by a small group in the top. 'Biden' and his 'progressive Liberal/Socialist' friends by his side.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Boad, for me it is seeing a lot of reruns.

I'm not surprised. A little sad, but not surprised. History sometimes repeats when we don't learn our lessons. Sometimes it just rhymes. But there's nothing new under the sun.

Ever hear of the "Whites" in the Russian Civil War?

No, I had not. Thank you for telling me about them. They say politics make strange bedfellows, and I suppose it's true of war for the same reason.

He is doing things to take care of himself (like many our politicians), and mixed in with that is a bizarre worldview that is anchored to an era gone for 35 years now. The guy is a clock-winder, and is now finding out that trying to wind the clock backwards leads to lots of dead people. Whether that deters him or not is to be seen.

Yes, I have never doubted that Putin is doing what is best for Putin. I also have no doubt that Putin thinks that whatever is good for Putin is good for Russia.

I have wondered if Putin is beginning to experience his own mental decline, and if he has become irrationally paranoid -- about the neo-Nazis, the biolabs, the specter of NATO on his borders, etc. -- and this is what prompted the invasion.

But that's just speculation trying to make sense of it all. Too much is off. Too much doesn't add up. Too much doesn't make sense in the big picture.

a reply to: TheLead

You make an excellent point, and one that I do keep in mind. These neo-Nazis have defended Ukraine, have served Ukraine's interests, and the Ukranian people do have good reason to be thankful. It may backfire on them at some point, and perhaps already has if reports are true, but as long as they are fighting Ukraine's aggressor, they are the "good guys".

All of Russians television is controlled by the government. I am learning more and more how Russians have been brainwashed by their own government and how difficult it is for them to not know exactly what is going on because they are being spoon fed information from a very biased 'authority'.

Quite frankly, Russia is already at "1984". Their only hope is their youth that WANT TO and can still access outside information so show the real picture of the real world and what is going on. If those who know can put out enough information through the underground so there's some resistance to the brainwashing to prevent 100% NWO, maybe there's some possibility for truth to prevail. It seems slim to none though in the long run.

At some point, one has to look at the ENTIRE scene and be ready to jettison beloved preconceived notions that we've formed thanks to disinformation.

This can not be overstated. If I may add.."The truth doesn't matter, only what's documented" is a hang up that can hide actual truth.

a reply to: StoutBroux

All of Russians television is controlled by the government. I am learning more and more how Russians have been brainwashed by their own government and how difficult it is for them to not know exactly what is going on because they are being spoon fed information from a very biased 'authority'.

I thought this was always the case. Pravda... Tass...

I'm surprised anyone thought different!

Wait so communist Russians are now right wing?

Anyone who believes this is an idiot.

The conflict in Ukraine is a bunch of fascists fighting a bunch of communist. If you consider yourself a functioning adult the only people you should support here are the citizens of Ukraine and Russia as they stand to suffer the most from this conflict.

Sounds like some of you here need some actual information not propaganda.

Cheers

originally posted by: beyondknowledge
uote]originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
Azov was not started by the Russians, they have been killing Russians.

And your point is what exactly? It makes their usefulness as a created enemy more believable.

They originally started as a kind of soccer firm or factory as known as in the UK. They would go to soccer matches to deliberately start violent fights often using weapons.

This is very old news.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: beyondknowledge
uote]originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
Azov was not started by the Russians, they have been killing Russians.

And your point is what exactly? It makes their usefulness as a created enemy more believable.

They originally started as a kind of soccer firm or factory as known as in the UK. They would go to soccer matches to deliberately start violent fights often using weapons.

This is very old news.

a reply to: nugget1


Even that small group around biden that actually wanted war, did NOT start this war.

russia did.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: nugget1


Even that small group around biden that actually wanted war, did NOT start this war.

russia did.

There is no war.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: nugget1


Even that small group around biden that actually wanted war, did NOT start this war.

russia did.

In a very simple minded way one can say that by ignoring much, either as a convenience, willfully or ignorance.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Russian propaganda has been very tiresome here.. When there is a post of different view on issues than russian propagandae, threads are quickly buried by thread spamming by them.. so expect this one to buried soon. I wonder has any other noticed the same.

So now that Russian has closed internet to outside Russia.. does it mean that those Russians here posting are paid for it ? Food for a thought

It has been. Lots of people claiming hundreds of war videos are fake too.

Combine that with the overall "democrats are evil and nwo" threads and ATS feels like a right wing putin propaganda paradise.

ATS is quickly dying out as a place for intellectual conspiracy.