Racism in Ukraine

a reply to: Boadicea

I found one


You are free to use it as a avatar.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: JAGStorm

Who cares?

A country invaded another country.

Every country is a country because a particular sect of people with similar beliefs invaded a "country" and then called themselves a "country".

What should we do about it?

Racism is discriminating a particular race. So could it be racism if they are the same race? Or is it cultural differences?

But your country invaded another country.... so somehow we cannot talk about your culture or racial issues.

Why don't we first focus on the term "logic" before we do the whole WHAT ABOUT YOU, WHAT ABOUT ME type stuff? Save that Michael Jackson song when it is relevant. Okie dokie?

Where's David Hasselhoff when we need him?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Boadicea

Sorry... I won't be looking. As stated, I have provided links to reports.

Like report’s and intel on WMD…….

I hear ya.

In this case, at the very least, the Azov Battalion or Special Operations Detachment is well documented as containing neo-nazis since 2014.

Even the Azov Battalion link on Wikipedia contains loads of historical footnotes and information about Azov.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: Boadicea

I have a suspicion that much is being done on a "jump through your a**" timeline with a strong whiff of "improvise as you go".

I tend to agree. There will necessarily be lots of thinking on their feet so to speak.

But I am wary of things that keep getting highlighted...

Point is well taken.

...like the Azov Battalion (for example, what about the other political battalions? Are they not as convenient in terms of photos of idiots sporting Nazi regalia? ... my point being that those other units and indeed the entire military force is part of the picture, and we're not getting pointed to regular Ukrainian units who are just fighting their country's war.)

I have to disagree. It seems to me that in the beginning there was much focus on the Ukrainian army in general, as well as the civilians taking up arms to fight and otherwise finding ways and means to fight. It seemed to me that there was a conscious and deliberate effort to keep the public's eyes everywhere except on the neo-Nazis. I haven't seen anyone claim they are thee major fighting force, but it was the absence of MSM reports that prompted the spate of non-MSM reports.

And the Russians know damned well there is a difference between groups of Nazi hooligans and an entire government dedicated to national socialist philosophy and practice. But those kind of distinctions work against the propaganda they want us to believe as to why it was "necessary" for them to invade Ukraine.

To be fair, as long as there is any officially sanctioned and approved neo-Nazis fighting for their enemy, of course Russia is going to make the most of it. But I will also say that according to reports going back years, neo-Nazis in the east have long been waging guerilla warfare against their Russian neighbors. I'm not sure Putin cares what their proportion is, as long as that proportion is wreaking havoc, injury and death on his people with impunity.

For my part, I don't think the Ukrainian government is some kind of crypto-Nazi regime. It may be very corrupt, but that doesn't make Nazis out of them. Just like the average Ukrainian guy who works with his hands may be very conservative, but it doesn't make him a Nazi. We've all heard enough of that kind of crap from our own government, using terms like 'deplorables'.

That's the problem with lying down with fleas, right? Ukraine has chosen this alliance, knows the problems they were causing, and are now being judged for it.

Mind you, I'm sure the students and migrants from other countries feel uncomfortable and want out. But I can't blame the Ukrainians for taking care of their own women and children first. Their values on that kind of thing are more like those of the Western world circa 1900.

Cheers

I do understand this -- responsibility, like charity, begins at home. Ukraine has a responsibility to take care of their own people first. Every nation does. I would expect Ukraine to make reasonable accommodations (as circumstances permit) to assist other nations to take care of their own people too, if only as a common courtesy (but not responsibility).

Ukraine cannot be expected to do it all, and to do it all alone.

a reply to: MykeNukem

Googled that it has 900 members in battalion, that is quite a lot. I wonder how many nazis are in other countries so we could compare. Still less than in small villages.

a reply to: MykeNukem

Racial violence breaks out aboard U.S. Navy ships

Racial violence flares aboard U.S. Navy ships on October 12, 1972.

www.history.com...

Its glossed over, but there are still racial tensions in the US Navy.

However, it’s not something perpetuated by most of the command and the majority of sailors.

a reply to: dollukka

LOL! Thanks -- but no thanks.

I have no use for avatars. I don't even have them enabled!!! I don't see anyone's avatar.

a reply to: MykeNukem

Other words, there are always that crappy 1 to 5 percent. And they don’t reflect the views of the majority. Nor the majority of their countrymen.

a reply to: neutronflux

Like report’s and intel on WMD…….

Hmmmmm... I seem to recall some WMDs we had the receipts for from the Iran/Iraq war years...

But yes, we did receive quite a few different reports, not all of which could be true.

It seemed to me then, much like it seems to me today, that it was safe to assume they had something, but how much and how effective and was it worthy of invading a sovereign nation over were the important questions to be answered.

a reply to: MikhailBakunin

So you're giving Russia a pass?

Not sure I understand.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: MykeNukem

Racial violence breaks out aboard U.S. Navy ships

Racial violence flares aboard U.S. Navy ships on October 12, 1972.

www.history.com...

Its glossed over, but there are still racial tensions in the US Navy.

However, it’s not something perpetuated by most of the command and the majority of sailors.

Agree 100%.

Point noted, as I noted myself earlier.

a reply to: Boadicea

Re: Azov battalion. May be a lack of coverage in MSM (which I hardly look at), but I've seen them already mentioned several times on various ATS threads, as if they are the only Ukrainian military organization of note. Not to mention they get plenty of play in Russian propaganda. As I said, neo-Nazis aren't my cup of tea, but if we are to, as ATS promotes, 'deny ignorance', then we are perforce obliged to at least attempt to view the bigger picture. And during an invasion, I'm sure the Ukrainian government will use anyone they can find who is willing to fight Russian soldiers.

We're already seeing that with the invitation for foreigners to fight in Ukraine. That will all have repercussions over many years.

The evacuation of third country nationals is doubtlessly fraught with problems. I mentioned EU visas (which the EU still to my knowledge enforces for other than Ukrainian nationals). The other is that so far as I know, airlines aren't flying anymore, and the Russian navy has shut down maritime traffic to Ukraine. So that leaves them with travel on the ground. Besides the EU, neighboring countries are Russia and Belarus. Not many options.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

...we are perforce obliged to at least attempt to view the bigger picture.

Indeed we are obliged to do so... and I would say we are doing so by recognizing and acknowledging that the neo-Nazi presence is part of that big picture.

They are still but one piece of the big puzzle.

a reply to: JAGStorm

It is a war/conflict that has already involved us financially.

The only people invested financially are Deep State wankers trying to cover up their corruption.

What the hell are you talking about?

a reply to: Boadicea


All 600 of them?

In 5m strong fighting force.


I know you are getting pretty good with domestic propaganda, THIS is the international variety we long ago discussed.

NOT even remotely similar.



Please avoid pending reputational issues that WILL result from spreading any more russian propaganda here.

It was entertaining in peacetime.

This isn't peacetime.

STOP.



EVERYONE should consider this the most friendly and polite thing you're ever going to hear from me on this going forward.

STOP with the russian propaganda on ANY part of ATS except hoax and conspiracy forums.



Think I'm kidding?

Maybe someone should pay better attention.

I don't bluff.

Or back down.

STOP with the ATS russia propaganda spreading.

Last warning.

a reply to: Boadicea

Certainly agree with that. And something that, if Ukraine survives as an independent power, will have to address. Like any country, there will probably be extremists there, but they shouldn't allow them to form military organizations.

A bit of history I recall makes me roll my eyes when I hear official Russian statements about neo-Nazis and the like. The Soviet army and KGB sat on East Germany for 45 years. To look at East Germany as it then existed, one would have thought, "man, those guys are fully communist". But, after the Soviets left, guess which part of Germany had the biggest problem with neo-Nazis?

So I have to ask, were the Soviets really so incompetent that they didn't know that groups like that existed and couldn't crush them (we ARE speaking of Putin's boys here, the KGB in E. Germany) ... or, perhaps, the Soviets really didn't care all that much, and what we hear now being trotted out by Putin's regime is a, er, "convenient" reawakening of the Russian government to the existence of neo-Nazi groups ... to the extent that it justifies an invasion of another Slavic country.

As I mentioned in another ATS thread about this very topic, this stuff gets tedious quickly because none of it is cut and dried.



Cheers

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: JAGStorm

Propaganda, there is minor fascist groups in every country these groups do not present the image of all citizens, Ukrainians just happen to be on focus in Russian news. A false reason why invasion happens.

But in say, Canada or the US, do they have their own units n the military?

foreignpolicy.com...

www.theguardian.com...

originally posted by: NorthOfStuff

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: JAGStorm

Propaganda, there is minor fascist groups in every country these groups do not present the image of all citizens, Ukrainians just happen to be on focus in Russian news. A false reason why invasion happens.

But in say, Canada or the US, do they have their own units n the military?

foreignpolicy.com...

www.theguardian.com...

No.

We don't have any localized units at all.

They occasionally result in problems like this, so we just haven't done it for half a century.

And no longer have any of those problems as a result.

originally posted by: NorthOfStuff

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: JAGStorm

Propaganda, there is minor fascist groups in every country these groups do not present the image of all citizens, Ukrainians just happen to be on focus in Russian news. A false reason why invasion happens.

But in say, Canada or the US, do they have their own units n the military?

foreignpolicy.com...

www.theguardian.com...

Not to mention the far right political party and it’s leader.

“Tyahnybok was voted Person of the Year for 2012 by readers of the country's leading news magazine, Korrespondent.[6] Tyahnybok was ranked #43 in the 2012 list of "Top 100 Most influential Ukrainians" by Korrespondent.[41]”

en.wikipedia.org...

There is no doubt that the far right has more a clout in the Ukraine than would be deemed acceptable here.

a reply to: NorthOfStuff

Pentagon report reveals inroads white supremacists have made in military
Extent of the military’s own extremism problem has yet to be tracked, Pentagon officials acknowledge

I guess they are in everywhere, in small portions.
LINK