Racism in Ukraine

a reply to: JAGStorm

JAG,

It will be a long time, if ever, before we know the truth, or even an approximation of such.

I'll give you an example regarding something that may somewhat close to home for you.

In the Korean War, it was suspected that Soviet pilots had flown against the United Nations air forces. But there was no proof (back then) that was available. But it was in the 1980s a book was written by a Soviet general as an official work on the losses of the Soviet military in 20th century wars. In that work, he comes right out and gives exact numbers for how many people they lost in those operations. It wasn't a huge number, but reading it was kind of a, "who knew?"

Had the public known back then, would they have cried out for the USSR to be attacked since they were acting as combatants?

Cheers

They are showing videos of civilians making Molotov cocktails, they are no longer civilians but a resistance group, and are not bound by the Geneva Convention protections.

This could all be a trap, a bear playing with a kitten to get mass casualties. Ukraine is left out to dry.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Women, children, and the infirm first. Everyone else, here's your rifle. If you don't want to protect the country you're currently living in for various reasons, you probably shouldn't have moved there.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: Boadicea

Perspective advised.

Duly noted!

There are units of those kinds of goons in the Ukrainian national guard.

But overall the military there numbers some 200,000. The Azov and similar battalions are a drop in the bucket and hardly representative.

Cheers

I'm certainly not trying to quantify their numbers in any way. I really don't know. Anecdotally, I've read that they are predominantly in eastern Ukraine. I have also read that Blacks and other minorities are only being treated this way at some crossings and checkpoints, not all -- but I have no way to quantify those numbers either.

I think it's pretty well established that there are neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine, but not all fighting for Ukraine are neo-Nazis. And there are some crossings/checkpoints where minorities are being refused, but not all. I figure that's about all we can know for sure.

All we can do is acknowledge that it's happening, to what extent we do not know, and is just one piece in this BIG puzzle.

Cui bono, here. Who benefits from this whole they are all Nazis we are fighting with the great soviet? Sure there are right-wing nut jobs in the bunch but does that make them all Nazis? No more than it makes all Trump supporters Nazis. This old tired tactic seems to keep working though so why abandon it for reasoned debate?

a reply to: Boadicea

I read in one article from a few years back there were 40 to 50 of these political "battalions". Again, a perspective thing. In a normal military force a battalion might number anywhere from 600 to 1000 personnel. But some of these "battalions" had a few dozen people -- kind of promoting their strength for PR purposes.

That said, my WAG is there is maybe up to 10,000 of the radical right wingers, but even of that number, I doubt all of them are dumb enough to run around with Nazi regalia on their uniforms. It is nauseating to see that, but it is important to recall how many other Ukrainian military people are not part of that scene.

I'm not surprised about the checkpoints. First, if they think the people crossing don't have the right visa to enter the EU, they're probably not going to let them go by. Ukraine needs all the EU support it can get right now, and border squabbles about who gets to cross are not a cause they're going to support. Second, if I'm Sergeant Joe Ukraine charged with deciding who gets to board the train taking refugees out of Ukraine, my probable priority will be my own people. That is harsh and it is tribal, but people take care of their own first.

Cheers Boad

I challenge all of you.. Google map Kiev
How many nazis you find there on the streets of Ukrainian capital ?

I have browsed the streets about hour and i found... none

originally posted by: machineintelligence
Cui bono, here. Who benefits from this whole they are all Nazis we are fighting with the great soviet? Sure there are right-wing nut jobs in the bunch but does that make them all Nazis? No more than it makes all Trump supporters Nazis. This old tired tactic seems to keep working though so why abandon it for reasoned debate?

Yes, well after being painted as a nastie for peacefully protesting my government, I find it somewhat amusing that they are now willing to look the other way at whole battalions of neo--nasties.

Our Deputy PM helped hold up a neo-nazi banner at the Ukraine Protest in Ottawa the other day. She's the one that called us all racists, nazis, etc.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of our Western Leaders, and the fact you can't trust them one bit.

a reply to: Hypntick

Women, children, and the infirm first. Everyone else, here's your rifle. If you don't want to protect the country you're currently living in for various reasons, you probably shouldn't have moved there.

Too bad that doesn't apply to the USA and Canada.

As to the thread topic, I'm trying to understand something here... OK, I get it that Russia shouldn't have invaded Ukraine. I'm all in with that. But does Russia's invasion of Ukraine mean that Ukrainian racism is OK now? How does that work? Countries which are invaded get to be racist now?

Here's what I am hearing, not just from this thread but overall:

• Racism is bad, unless one of the following applies:
  • The racists have dark skin.
    
  • The racists have been invaded.
    
  • The racists hate white people.
    
  • The racists are Democrats.
    
  • The racists want to protest racism.
    
  • The racists burn buildings.
    
  • To be announced.
  
  
• People with white skin are automatically racist, unless one of the above exemptions applies.
  
  
• Racists not exempted due to one of the conditions listed above should be denied any access to anything they need or want, even if such denial of access would be fatal, They should have thought of that before they became racists.

Somehow, I don't think this was what Dr. King advocated for...

TheRedneck

a reply to: MykeNukem

Really? 400-1,200 persons in a force of that size. Do you think so many? I only saw about 30-50 in images I have seen so more like a platoon.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Yes, people can find many reasons to do what they do, and can often do the same thing for different reasons... such as at crossings/checkpoints. And we don't know what orders the soldiers have received, nor for what reasons, nor if this is actually following orders, or defying orders, or if there any orders at all.

We know it's happening, and needs to be recognized and acknowledged, but it's just one piece in a much bigger puzzle.

originally posted by: machineintelligence
a reply to: MykeNukem

Really? 400-1,200 persons in a force of that size. Do you think so many? I only saw about 30-50 in images I have seen so more like a platoon.

Let me be clear. I'm not claiming Ukrainians are neo-nazis. Only that there are some neo-nazis unquestioningly involved.

All of the accusations we were under in Canada came from a flag that appeared to be set up for the purpose of slandering us. No credit on the photo, and the flag was nowhere near our protest.

Like I said, just pointing out the hypocrisy and double-speak of our Leaders.

originally posted by: dollukka
I challenge all of you.. Google map Kiev
How many nazis you find there on the streets of Ukrainian capital ?

I have browsed the streets about hour and i found... none

Ooooh... you're good! How exactly do you find Nazis? (or, in your case, NOT find Nazis) Birthmarks? Tattoos? Maybe they have a GPS tracking device in/on them to zero right in?

Do tell. I want that magic power too!!!

a reply to: Boadicea
You say that there is .. show me. Nazis are proud people for their mission.. if you see one show us.

Putin himself is a facist-- prove me wrong

a reply to: Boadicea

I have a suspicion that much is being done on a "jump through your a**" timeline with a strong whiff of "improvise as you go".

But I am wary of things that keep getting highlighted like the Azov Battalion (for example, what about the other political battalions? Are they not as convenient in terms of photos of idiots sporting Nazi regalia? ... my point being that those other units and indeed the entire military force is part of the picture, and we're not getting pointed to regular Ukrainian units who are just fighting their country's war.)

And the Russians know damned well there is a difference between groups of Nazi hooligans and an entire government dedicated to national socialist philosophy and practice. But those kind of distinctions work against the propaganda they want us to believe as to why it was "necessary" for them to invade Ukraine.

For my part, I don't think the Ukrainian government is some kind of crypto-Nazi regime. It may be very corrupt, but that doesn't make Nazis out of them. Just like the average Ukrainian guy who works with his hands may be very conservative, but it doesn't make him a Nazi. We've all heard enough of that kind of crap from our own government, using terms like 'deplorables'.

Mind you, I'm sure the students and migrants from other countries feel uncomfortable and want out. But I can't blame the Ukrainians for taking care of their own women and children first. Their values on that kind of thing are more like those of the Western world circa 1900.

Cheers

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: dollukka
I challenge all of you.. Google map Kiev
How many nazis you find there on the streets of Ukrainian capital ?

I have browsed the streets about hour and i found... none

Ooooh... you're good! How exactly do you find Nazis? (or, in your case, NOT find Nazis) Birthmarks? Tattoos? Maybe they have a GPS tracking device in/on them to zero right in?

Do tell. I want that magic power too!!!

I think it's that little pathetic moustache? Even the nazi womenz have them...

Maybe a place to start, lmao.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: Boadicea
You say that there is .. show me.

Awwwww... so you really don't have any magic Nazi-seeking powers. I shoulda known better than to get my hopes up!!!

I've already posted a couple links. There are reports all over and very easily found. Are you saying that those reports are wrong? If so, please do share.

Nazis are proud people for their mission.. if you see one show us.

Sorry... I won't be looking. As stated, I have provided links to reports. If you have something proving those reports wrong, then please do share.

Putin himself is a facist-- prove me wrong

Putin's the ultimate Russian Nationalist KGB thug. Always has been and always will be.

originally posted by: MykeNukem

I think it's that little pathetic moustache? Even the nazi womenz have them...

Maybe a place to start, lmao.

By golly gee I think you're on to something!!!

a reply to: Boadicea

Sorry... I won't be looking. As stated, I have provided links to reports.

Like report’s and intel on WMD…….

CNN,MSNBC is not covering this heavily as they are busy of Russia, Russia, Russia.