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For me is a Tesla powerwall and solar package worth it.

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posted on Feb, 13 2022 @ 12:23 PM
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originally posted by: RickyD
a reply to: robsmith

Seems like you answered your own question. Not to mention if god forbid a battery has an oopsie and like blows up...have you seem what that does in something like one of their cars?


That's an interesting statement. The majority of your battery packs are made up of 18650 cells. These are a bit bigger than a standard AA battery. They are then arranged and connected to get the desired pack. The problem with these are cheap and counterfeit cells. The charging of these packs are computer controlled. If the the correct good cells are used there's no problem. If cheap or counterfeit cells are used then they can have problems. The problem is in the supply line. This was going on long before COVID. Most of your cells are bought through distributers and it isn't too unusual for them to swap a few boxes of counterfeit cells for real cells in an order to make a bit more money.
edit on 13-2-2022 by JIMC5499 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2022 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: nerbot

Yup find some nice property next to a waterfall and you're all set. Hell, you could even open a grist mill and make some extra coin on top of the energy saving. Don't you just love 21st century technology.



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 02:10 AM
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a reply to: bladerunner44

That sounds idyllic.



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 02:16 AM
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a reply to: bobs_uruncle

I wreck in s diesel generator back up would be great, along with a battery of lead acid batteries, with an inverter might work.

Where is that promised home nuclear reactor



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 03:11 AM
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a reply to: RickyD

I have seen the car crashes, and powerwall explosions, they can’t be put out.

A colleague is a volunteer CFA FIREFIGHTER, the training that he has been given is if they go to a lithium ion battery fire is to protect neighboring properties and just key the battery burn, as they are difficult to put out.



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 04:13 AM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
It's a con. Your solar cells lose efficiency from the first year but really lose lots of efficiency after 10 years, as much as 50% in some cases

I comment just about the modules now, not interested in arguing a lot (because I worked in that field) but this has to be pointed out:

The efficiency loss was found to be almost non existent by now, even for older modules. The ten year number is a miss understanding from your side or someone that has no idea, and relayed the information to you. The 10 year number is an average. Just the number in the datasheet, that is by factor 10x too high for most modules, as practice showed but they won't change it because the market accepts these figures and they are save. Nobody looks at that when they buy modules, what matters is power density Wp/m².

I would be interested in a real life example about the 50% figure, because I think it's dirt, not degradation you talk about. Yes there are product lines of modules that now show some efficiency loss but not even close to 10% after ten years.

I run a PV plant and have analyzed them before, was my job. I am not a "fan" but what you wrote is just not the truth, except whoever gave you that info or yourself, looked at one very fringe case and ignored everything else.

And 2.5 years energetic re-harvest time, not "never" as some say or whatever. May those that read this believe the lies or now got smarter and go out and look for themselfes.




Add to be more precise

Monetary degradation:
400Wp module avrg. 100€ = 0,25€Wp
94% base efficiency = 6% (1%=4Wp) = 24Wp loss in generation power over 10 years or 6€.

So simply said, a 100Wp module will "only" give you 94Wp after ten years. On top of that, the figure is only valid for 100% optimum irradiation, that you will never get all the time. So it means, that your module at maximum irradiation is then only capable of giving you 94% of it's power output.

But most of the time, the irradiance is lower and the effect is even less heavy on the efficiency, because you need to divide the 6% loss through the amount of cells that is 60-120 normally so you can now see yourself how numbers can trick you.


edit on 14.2.2022 by ThatDamnDuckAgain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 06:31 AM
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a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Forgot to add, and can not edit the post:

The calculation above is based on the official properties with manufacture safety margin, reality showed in the last ten years that for most modules it is about factor 10 lower (7.something - 13.something).

All this "never get back the energy" and "will degrade fast" is complete layman bull# from the lunch table talks.

I can't emphasize and stress this enough. Please people do your homework before you spread misinformation.

Of course if you add a Battery system then the calculation changes and I will even agree most of the times. It takes a lot of knowledge to gather all the circumstances (tilt, orientation, weather, latitude/longitude, roof size, energy consumption over course of day / night, shadows, length of the cables, type of cables, type of inverter and modules, distance to mains, how quick the panels become dirty, their low light level performance, the battery system size, local laws about feeding energy to the grid or not, capacaty and amount of battery modules, is it AC oder DC charged (huge differences) (....)

And a shtload more.

edit on 14.2.2022 by ThatDamnDuckAgain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 06:49 AM
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a reply to: robsmith
From what you write it is NOT worth it.

If you give me these infos, I can at least guestimate if it's viable to do a full calculation:

- how much do you pay per kWh? Then from your 1700$ I can calculate your yearly kWh, ignoring utility meter fees.
- Is the house empty over the course of the day, is someone at home running appliances or does everyone work during the day? -> When is your highest base load on your house grid and how high?
- your local irradiance in W/m² (for privacy concerns, you look it up yourself or pm me rough long/lat)
- Your roof's orientation and angle
- Would you get money for sending in energy to the grid? If so, how much per kWh?

If you give me these five parameters I can tell you the size of the PV plant you need and the size of the battery system.

If you want to make a real ROI calculation you need to consider rising energy prices too. You can't take todays value and calculate it, you need to adapt it yearly according to historical rises or your result will tell you that it is not viable but in reality you would save 1000s, depends on the size of your system and the autarky grade you aim. You currently calculate with 100% (no energy from the grid at all), that is not correct also.

The best systems I saw and analyzed were 95% max. autarky. That means 95% of the power/energy throughout the day/year is coming from the PV system and 5% is from mains grid. And that's exceptionally good but has to do with WHO installed the system. Was it calculated correct or not? Because many are not correctly calculated and installed correct, but just "sell sell sell" fast and therefor people are frustrated, understandably.

Does the owner just ignore any faults and warnings if they may happen? Are filters and ventilators clean? It's not fire and forget for 25 years, although people often think that. Some are fire and forget and never need service except dusting off. Some people do not even do that and are angry if their inverter dies after ten years because it cooks @ 79°C daily and shuts off. Nothing to be surprised about really, besides that the inverters most have 5-10 year warranty anyways.

Everything else is looking into a crystal ball.
edit on 14.2.2022 by ThatDamnDuckAgain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 12:58 PM
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a reply to: robsmith

My sister had the panels and battery banks set up for under 20K. Where are you getting these high cost numbers from?

Her power bill is around $40 A month in the summer average. Around $60-$70 in the winter. She lives in florida so winter is only like 3 months of the year.

She has 4 adults and 1 child living in her 3 bedroom house. Just to give you an idea of how much electricity they use per day.

I'd say it's well worth it. If I owned a home I would do it for sure.



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 01:02 PM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
My sister had the panels and battery banks set up for under 20K. Where are you getting these high cost numbers from?


Pretty sure he's making them up as a strawman argument.



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 03:26 PM
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Wait.... but we need to DEMAND electric...MANDATE ELECTRIC EVERYTHING.......even though our grid is incapable and the "climate footprint" needed to provide that electricity is WORSE than gasoline..... It's super important we throw or brains out , along with logic , so we are more socially responsible....ok? hehe... I'm with you!


a reply to: bobs_uruncle


edit on 14-2-2022 by daboxfan because: gramar



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 03:41 PM
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You would think that... until you actually pulled out a calculator and did some thinking for your self my friend! ... let me give a quick stab at it for you so you don't have to.. You pay $20K ( VERY LOW SIDE for a smaller house) for a complete system and you finance it with a loan( 99% of people CAN'T pay cash). That will cost you are least $30K by the time its paid off. You probably pay on average $50 per month for electricity still. WITHOUT AN ELECTRIC CAR- THEY ARE EXPENSIVE TO CHARGE) That's $ 600 per year. You WILL need to replace some batteries and some panels and some WILL lose efficiency( its IMPOSSIBLE not to).. lets add a measly $5K cost over $30 years. IM BEING REAL EASY AND NICE HERE..... total cost is $53,000- divide that by 30 years and you paid an average of $147 per month... not a lot of savings ( if any)for the investment and potentially MUCH WORSE repair and maintenance bills. forget it if the control modules and or brackets etc go south, you don't get much of sun in the winter, etc.. GUARANTEE- none of this last 30 years. its like a car... these aren't priced for you to win and make money.

reply to: scraedtosleep



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 03:48 PM
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a reply to: daboxfan

You only have to look at a modern RV or yacht to see how that is set up.I just don't like the high tech involved with solar panels, compared to a bearing replacement on a wind generator every few years, also the wind blows day and night. It means it does not suffer from low light seasonal problems either. If you are set up for solar, is there any reason why you can't use the solar controller for wind? if the wind generator had a diode in the circuit, you should be able to just wire it in.



posted on Feb, 15 2022 @ 02:51 AM
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a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

The kWh rate I pay is 28 cents. The feed in tariff rates are 7.5cents pervkwh. One of us works from home. Though we get a lot of natural light.

Don’t usually put the first light on until aboutb8pm.

Her in Victoria they don’t have generous rebates schemes for installation, mostly it’s only panels. The feed in rates aren’t so great. A battery would be a better option though the capital costs are high



posted on Feb, 15 2022 @ 07:26 AM
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a reply to: robsmith

Your avrg. electricity cost annually: 1700$ (28c/kWH)
Your avr. consumption annually: 6070kWh
Avrg. daily: 16,63kWh
Feed-in rate: 7.5c
kWh rate: 28c
Avrg. cost in for 1kWp panel surface incl. inverter and installation: 700$ - 1060$ (according to my research)
Avrg. cost for battery system per kWh: 1400$-2000$ (according to my research)

In an average household, the amount of produced electricity that you can use is around 30% without a battery storage. The rest will go out to the grid.

Global surface radiation is 1000W/m² since you say you have no shadows and good light conditions.. we take kWh/kWp rate of 1000 (how many kWh per kWp are produced for your location). That's a good average base value, bad is everything below 900 and exceptional good is 1400kWh/kWp.

Calculation without battery for a 6.6kWp system:
PV system cost avrg. 880$*6.6kWp = 5808$
Yearly return feed in rate = 0.7*6600kWh*7.5c = 346$/year
(the 70% of your energy from roof will go down the grid, 30% used)
Yearly energy cost savings in top = 0.3*6600*28c = 554.40$/year
Total savings / return = 900.40$.

Annual payment to utility company = 0.7*6600kWh*28c = 1293,6$
(the 70% you still need to buy from the grid)

Your will produce 132,000 kWh for the grid and reap 6920$ in 20 years.
You will, in parallel, save 11,088$ in 20 years with current energy prices. You will save way more because prices are rising for sure.
Your PV-Plant without a battery will offset in 6,45 years. Now, you want to be autark as much as possible you need a battery system.

If 70% go down the grid and you want to buffer some real bad days, a thumb rule is that adding the same amount of kWh in battery storage will give you 60% autarky. That means 60% of the time it's energy from the roof, your own energy.

If you want to reach 75%, you need to double your panel system to 2kWp/MWh and then you need to double the capacity to 2kWh/MWh. A battery system cost around 1700$ / kWh.

60% autarky:
6.6kWp panel system ( 880$*6.6kWp 5,808$) + 6.6kWh battery system (1700$*6.6kWh) = Total 17,028$
Now we iterate through the above section again and do it all over:
PV system cost + battery avrg. 17,028$
Yearly return feed in rate = 0.3*6600kWh*7.5c = 148.50$/year
(the 30% of your energy from roof will go down the grid, 70% used)
Yearly energy cost savings in top = 0.7*6600*28c = 1293.60$/year
Total savings / return = 1442.10$/year
Annual payment to utility company = 0.3*6600kWh*28c = 554.40$
(the 30% you still need to buy from the grid)

You will, in parallel, save 28,842$ in 20 years with current energy prices. You will save way more because prices are rising for sure.
Your PV-Plant with a battery autarky grade of 60% and roughly 60% of the energy yourself used, will offset in 11 years.

A few things to say:

I worked with averages a lot, from prices I had from the internet. I average solare irradiation, I basically averaged everything. Depending how you move the parameters you could look at 8 years or less.
Consider that you might get 2k$ for battery installment and another 2k$ for pv panel installment from the government subsidized (just an example) what would greatly offset the above calculation.

Conclusion:
Always calculate and always calculate with real world parameters and safety margin. I hope I have helped you.



posted on Feb, 15 2022 @ 07:36 AM
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Adding with a second post to add some truth to this:

Consider
- that on bad days, with snow or ice on the panels, you might not even get 200Wh. (!)
- that always something can break, animals can damage something (rats, martens like cables)
- hat there are insurances for things like glass panel breakage and you have 25 years warranty on the modules,
- the 10 year warranty on at least 94% module output currently.
- the 5-10 year (can be prolonged for like 200$ to 15 years) warranty on the modules
- that you get what you pay for.

My own PV plant is 700kWp without a battery storage, everything I do not use (not a lot) goes directly into the grid or to EV super chargers if the energy is enough. The rest then further goes out to the grid, to houses down the street. Of course I did not pay for this in cash, I have a deal with the bank and it pays off itself.
edit on 15.2.2022 by ThatDamnDuckAgain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2022 @ 12:44 AM
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a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Your calculations only represent an on paper perfect world. Factor in any malfunction as well as maintenance too. Also what quality of materials are you planning to use. You can cut down the wear and tear by using quality materials but those aren't cheap...and if you go cheap expect to replace stuff much more often.



posted on Feb, 19 2022 @ 12:46 AM
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a reply to: JIMC5499

Literally google tesla battery explosions and tell me you can say with confidence this couldn't randomly happen to anyone regardless of how careful you are.



posted on Feb, 19 2022 @ 04:41 AM
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a reply to: Wide-Eyes

Yeah our youtube algorithms are probably aligned lol.

Great minded people think alike bro!! 😎



posted on Feb, 19 2022 @ 04:45 AM
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Also i mentioned my dad getting a lg chem battery.

Basically he has 8kw solar on the roof and powers things like the water heater, dish washer, washing machine etc during the day with solar. Intention with the wall battery is to power the fridges, water heater, tvs, at night.he’s trying to be as independent as he can. Multiple water storage tanks, trying to cut off the gas water heater and replace with electric as he believes water and gas prices are going to go up.



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