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'No war in Europe,' leaders of Germany, France & Poland meet on Russia-Ukraine crisis

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posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 02:28 PM
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Don't bank on it. Historically speaking, Europe doesn't seem to be able to go 80-100 years without some kind of war.

So? Germany, France and Poland? Are speaking for Russia and Ukraine?



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: DoubleDNH

Yes, it’s because of Biden, the short supply in the US means you import fuel from elsewhere and force the global price up



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

So what NATO is doing in Eastern Europe with the expansion isnt similar to what the Nazis did?


Not even close.

NATO expands by invite and agreement. The NAZI's expanded by war.

NATO is also a defensive alliance that is, believe it or not, extremely restricted in terms of how it works. It is restricted to Europe and Canada and the US. NATO members who have territories outside of the said areas are not covered with the exception of France and a few possession in north africa.



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 02:35 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

You can say deffensive as much as you want and it won't make this true. When in the last decades NATO did something defensive? As long as I remember, there were just attacks and invasions. US used NATO for it's own agenda, and other members are aware of that.



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 03:01 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




NATO expands by invite and agreement

Invite? you mean political bribery and threats.

Just look at Macedonia. Not a single Macedonian was in favor of the agreement with NATO or the name change. Politicians of the opposition who were agaisnt the whole deal and NATO were imprisoned until they were forced to sign the deal in their own homes.

The only ones whom were in favor were the smallest members of the nation and that were the Albanian politicians in Macedonia they pushed for it.

NATO is also a defensive alliance that is, believe it or not
If NATO was a defensive alliance why did they military intervene and regime changed Libya? how did the Libyan intervention had gotten for the NATO alliance?

Quite badly.

The Americans are using NATO for their own agenda as the other member/user said it better.



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 03:02 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

If you are a defensive alliance. You dont expand nor militarily meddle in affairs of other nations.



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 11:20 AM
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originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: Xcathdra

If you are a defensive alliance. You dont expand nor militarily meddle in affairs of other nations.


Right, like Putin is meddling in Ukraine.

BTW, a news flash. Alliances, defensive or not, can expand if other nations WANT to join them. Part of being sovereign is choosing with whom one wishes to associate.

Putin's Russia is such an aggressive state that very few other countries will voluntarily associate with Moscow. Compare that to NATO, where plenty of countries have voluntarily joined. Hell, even the EU is more popular than Russia.


Cheers



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: baburak
a reply to: Xcathdra

You can say deffensive as much as you want and it won't make this true. When in the last decades NATO did something defensive? As long as I remember, there were just attacks and invasions. US used NATO for it's own agenda, and other members are aware of that.


Please list the incidents you are referring to.



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 07:21 PM
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originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: Xcathdra




NATO expands by invite and agreement

Invite? you mean political bribery and threats.

Just look at Macedonia. Not a single Macedonian was in favor of the agreement with NATO or the name change. Politicians of the opposition who were agaisnt the whole deal and NATO were imprisoned until they were forced to sign the deal in their own homes.

The only ones whom were in favor were the smallest members of the nation and that were the Albanian politicians in Macedonia they pushed for it.

NATO is also a defensive alliance that is, believe it or not
If NATO was a defensive alliance why did they military intervene and regime changed Libya? how did the Libyan intervention had gotten for the NATO alliance?

Quite badly.

The Americans are using NATO for their own agenda as the other member/user said it better.


and in order for Macedonia to join they, as well as all NATO members, had to approve it -
"after which all 29 national parliaments voted to ratify the country’s membership. "

Yes, NATO is a defensive alliance. Attack a NATO member and you are attacking all NATO members. A NATO command was used in regards to Libya because the UN was blocking action. If you recall not all NATO members assisted and there were forces from Middle East countries who also took part.

The US cant use NATO for our own agenda because NATO does not work that way. It was a sticking point for the Russians when they were invited to join NATO after the collapse of the USSR. Russia could not comprehend being part of an alliance where all members had to agree to take action. It made no sense to Russia that a country like the Iceland could stand in the way of a country like Russia from taking any action. Being stopped by a country that does not have its own military is a problem for Russia.

NATO has only invoked article V once in its existence and that occurred because of 9/11. A NATO member can take action, even if all NATO members say no. It means that country is on its own. A prime example as of late is Turkey-Ukraine relations. Turkey is on the cusp of forming a military alliance with Ukraine. If Russia invades Ukraine Turkey will assist Ukraine. However NATO would be under no obligation to get involved because Ukraine is not a member and Turkeys alliance with Ukraine is separate from NATO. If russia were to retaliate against Turkey it would not trigger a NATO response.

Hence NATO is a defensive alliance. The only way it works is if a NATO member is attacked by a nation that the NATO charter spells out. Nothing stops a nato country from involving itself in a war. NATO members are under no obligation to assist a NATO country if it goes beyond self defense.



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 07:25 PM
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originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: Xcathdra

If you are a defensive alliance. You dont expand nor militarily meddle in affairs of other nations.


Like Russia is doing to former Soviet countries, like Ukraine? Or like Russias latest demand that NATO remove all NATO forces from eastern European countries. Or Russias invasion of Georgia? Or Russias 2014 invasion of Ukraine? Or like Russia deploying paratroops to Kazakhstan?

Last I checked those countries are sovereign and Russia does not get to dictate terms for an alliance they refused to join. Russias actions against Ukraine and Georgia are just 1 of many reasons former warsaw pact nations embraced western europe as well as joining nato.
edit on 12-2-2022 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2022 @ 07:44 PM
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NATO Charter


Article 4

The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.



UN Charter

United Nations Charter, Chapter VII:
Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression



Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.


and finally -

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

According to the memorandum, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they would:

* - Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
* - Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
* - Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.
* - Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
* - Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
* - Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.



After the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and US stated that Russian involvement was a breach of its Budapest Memorandum obligations to Ukraine which had been transmitted to the United Nations under the signature of Sergey Lavrov and others, and in violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

On 4 March 2014, the Russian president Vladimir Putin replied to a question on the violation of the Budapest Memorandum, describing the current Ukrainian situation as a revolution: "a new state arises, but with this state and in respect to this state, we have not signed any obligatory documents." Russia stated that it had never been under obligation to "force any part of Ukraine's civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will." Russia tried to suggest that the US was in violation of the Budapest Memorandum and described the Euromaidan as a US-instigated coup.



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 03:25 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ...Which ones of those were defensive and not just an invasion and attack?



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 04:56 AM
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originally posted by: baburak
a reply to: Xcathdra

Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ...Which ones of those were defensive and not just an invasion and attack?


Serbia - NATO acted to stop the ethnic cleansing by Slobodan Milosevic - Russia and China blocked the UN resolution for use of force to stop the ethnic cleansing (no surprise here that China / Russia would be ok with ethnic cleansing). No invasion occurred. You are ok with ethnic cleansing?

Iraq - NATO did not invade Iraq. There is a difference when a NATO member acts on their own. Just because a country is part of NATO does not mean NATO acted. Never mind the fact Iraq had violated several UN resolutions going back to the first gulf war in the late 90's.

Afghanistan - Invaded by NATO members as a result of the 9/11 attacks. The US invoked article 5 of the NATO charter as well as article 51 of the UN charter. (collective self defense). UN authorization was not required and was in line with article 51 / article 5.

Libya - NATO enforced a no fly zone, along with several non NATO nations from the middle east taking part. A no fly zone is not an invasion. NO invasion occurred.

What else do you have?

edit on 14-2-2022 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-2-2022 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2022 @ 05:10 AM
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a reply to: putnam6

"No war in Europe"

I tend to share there sentiment, because it will all end in tears.



posted on Apr, 22 2022 @ 10:54 PM
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a reply to: putnam6

4.22.2022

A problem with being part of any "group of countries", is that you open yourself up to being criticized, if you don't do what all the others do.

For example, GERMANY has not provided everything Zelensky wanted, for fighting and killing Russian invaders. Now, Germany is receiving increasing criticism for not "going along with the NATO program".

Details Here: www.foxnews.com...

Maybe Germany should leave the NATO alliance of countries if it's not happy.




posted on Apr, 22 2022 @ 11:25 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

It has worked that way since the end of WW11. They told Britain to back off on Suez and they did. The whole of EU is being run from the States but are they being run by the States is even the USA being run by the USA? Work that one out and we might have a clue about what has been going on. There is a possibility that no one knows what is going on, they just think they do. The problem is that we will not know what happened until it has happened. But gathering problems suggest something has already happened, the consequences of which cannot now be avoided. If Europe turns to Russia for its oil and gas and other raw materials, The USA loses influence, and the people who profit lose money along with it. If this becomes the case, a War in Europe is assured. this will either cause a European and Russian collapse which will suit certain parties, as wars cost a lot and the interest on loans is payable for decades.



posted on Apr, 24 2022 @ 07:39 AM
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originally posted by: anonentity
...is even the USA being run by the USA?


No, it's space aliens.




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