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'No war in Europe,' leaders of Germany, France & Poland meet on Russia-Ukraine crisis

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posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 06:14 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: putnam6
Okay, what's wrong with that, Ukraine will always have that rampant corruption aspect no matter who is in charge, it will take decades to burn out if ever.


There's corruption with all NATO members, that really isn't a good metric for entry.


...it does bring up the broader point, isn't NATO fairly antiquated now, #2 does it really make a diff, if it's "free" corrupt possibly Nazi Ukraine or a Russian Ukraine? I don't even think Putin wants all of Ukraine or any of it for that matter. He just knows it's not stable now, and FWIW it's his country that has closer ethnic ties than any of the other countries involved.

Not saying we don't keep a close eye on it or anything but to go let's send troops and weapons immediately is a complete over-reaction


That's the same type of ambivalence that got us WW2, "It's just the German speaking part of the country, it's really no big deal". He's an authoritarian dictator and will only become more emboldened by acquiescing to his behavior and demands.



Come on AM this isn't Hitler and WWII what a reach... and you know it. Good lord



posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 06:26 PM
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The probability of Putin, invading and capitulating Ukraine, is highly likely. No one spends the money and time to amass an army on the border of a country without significant gain. Putin, is ex KGB, was a firm believer in the Soviet Union, if I was a betting man, in about a month or so there will be war(s) in Asia. Not sure about Europe, depends on whether or not they will have the stomach for such atrocities.


edit on 9-2-2022 by Bicent because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 06:27 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: putnam6
I haven't worked out where this meeting is taking place. Is it in Munich?



Berlin

www.thestar.com.my...



posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 07:00 PM
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originally posted by: Shoujikina
a reply to: putnam6



'No war in Europe'


Has anyone here actually seen the (surprisingly boring) movie called 'Wag the Dog'?

Every time people start questioning the government or wanting to retain their freedoms, the government makes something BIG happen, so the attention is diverted elsewhere.

They are introducing sneaky things under the table while the crowd looks elsewhere; the PTPB that controls the governments, is basically performing a sleight-of-hand after another, and people are not wising up.

Or are they?

These diversion tactics and techniques worked very well in the past, when people had basically only a few 'information sources', owned by the same people or at least people in cahoots with each other. When there's only one truth in the TV, and then something 'big happens', people forget the previous, 'smaller truth'.

However, we live in the age of informational freedom, where anyone can keep an eye on 200 different stories and events simultaneously thanks to the internet and the widespread, accepted constant information flow from sources too numerous to even list. People can now CHOOSE their information sources, they can keep track of multiple stories and how they evolve and develop, all on their own, without needing a newscaster to tell them what's going on in the world.

In the modern times, it almost seems like this kind of tactic shouldn't really work anymore.


Actually, I think it's worse now, we have such a plethora of information and the vast majority of it is biased opinionated BS, the truth can easily get lost or dismissed just because of the source. The truth has become the needle in the social media/MSM/blogosphere haystack

It is like with the Truck convoy, the truckers have their side and we got loads of live video, then the Ottawans have their side and its opposite of the truckers and then there are the media that's a mixture, as for the truth and what is actually happening is still open for interpretation.


edit on 9-2-2022 by putnam6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 07:25 PM
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originally posted by: putnam6
Come on AM this isn't Hitler and WWII what a reach... and you know it. Good lord


It doesn't need to be Hitler, it just needs to be appeasement of a dictator. Hitler doesn't become Hitler without everyone trying to placate the crocodile.



posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 07:30 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

So what NATO is doing in Eastern Europe with the expansion isnt similar to what the Nazis did?



posted on Feb, 9 2022 @ 08:35 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: putnam6
Come on AM this isn't Hitler and WWII what a reach... and you know it. Good lord


It doesn't need to be Hitler, it just needs to be appeasement of a dictator. Hitler doesn't become Hitler without everyone trying to placate the crocodile.


Come on Benito, I suspect you are being contrarian for your amusement as usual

The only parallels that matter to WWII is both times our Presidents are handicapped and spoiling for a fight, albeit Id prefer Roosevelt infinitely more than Biden.

So you believe Putin will take over Europe if we give him concessions? seriously?

Putin doesn't want the hassle of occupying Ukraine, he just wants to annoy NATO and the US and he wants a more stable Ukraine ie negotiating tactics. He can sit his armies on the border and now he is atleast has 3 countries' attention, so what happens if Putin signs a peace accord with Germany, France, and Poland? Is Biden still going to remain belligerent? is he going to hold out aid to the appeasing countries?

Besides last time I heard the dictator BS we had 3 wars spent a chit load of money and left 2 countries in ruin, and we likely aren't any the more secure for it.



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 03:42 AM
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One marker of political leadership is being able to confront your own side with uncomfortable questions. This is what Nato will need to do with Germany. They can't rein in Vladimir Putin’s territorial ambitions unless they sort out Germany first. These are three questions I feel that need asking:

1. If Russia violates Ukraine's borders, would Germany agree to halting Nord Stream 2, even if Russia initially limits its invasion to a small part of Ukraine?

2. If Russia invades a Nato country, would Germany vote to trigger Nato’s Art. 5 mutual self-defence clause?

3. Do the SPD, or SPD-led states, take Russian money?


Worth reading.

Cheers
edit on 10-2-2022 by F2d5thCavv2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 05:26 AM
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originally posted by: putnam6
Come on Benito, I suspect you are being contrarian for your amusement as usual


I'm not, Putin is an authoritarian and appeasing him only emboldens him further.


So you believe Putin will take over Europe if we give him concessions? seriously?


I believe he wants to do what he's said, "bring back the power of the Soviet Union", and that it naturally means trying to annex more former territory.


Putin doesn't want the hassle of occupying Ukraine, he just wants to annoy NATO and the US and he wants a more stable Ukraine ie negotiating tactics. He can sit his armies on the border and now he is atleast has 3 countries' attention, so what happens if Putin signs a peace accord with Germany, France, and Poland? Is Biden still going to remain belligerent? is he going to hold out aid to the appeasing countries?


He just stated he doesn't want to deal with them. He wants some sort of understanding with the United States but honestly we should tell him to FO.

The parallels to pre-World War II are there, aggressive adversaries in both Europe and the Western Pacific. Both need to be stood up to.



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 05:28 AM
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originally posted by: vNex92
So what NATO is doing in Eastern Europe with the expansion isnt similar to what the Nazis did?


Those countries petition to join as evidenced by the fact that not all of Europe is in NATO.



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: putnam6

I can’t help but notice the Western media blaming Russia for aggression, last I checked they’re free to move troops and equipment to wherever they see fit within their own borders. Not sure what the game is but nothing good can come from antagonising them.



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 11:22 AM
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Since NATO is often depicted as an aggressive bugbear of sorts, for those who haven't had actual contact with the organization, these comments might be eye-opening.

First off, it is critical to understand that the "military bits" of NATO are not NATO. The military units are the armed forces of various countries and they might (or not) be subordinated to NATO command.

NATO itself does not make policy independently. What happens is that all of the COUNTRIES that make up NATO decide on common approaches, from questions as mundane as what size of bolts to use on a particular piece of equipment to how the entire alliance should react to an international situation. This, in part, is why there was no sense in disbanding NATO after the Cold War ended. FFS, multiple countries had spent decades deciding on common approaches to support a common defense, and for all the flaws, it still worked better than everybody doing everything their own way and expecting a defense to be successful. That was the Allies in the 1940 campaign -- no commonality, no standardization, and a complete CF when the Germans attacked.

NATO, minus the national military forces, is really just a bureaucratic organization of a permanently hired civilian staff who work with military personnel detailed from the alliance's component nations for a tour of duty at a location where NATO has staff. Those bureaucrats implement the common approaches mentioned in the preceding paragraph.

Some wish to compare NATO's "advances" in eastern Europe to the territorial expansion of Nazi Germany in the 1930s. But it doesn't work that way, because, first, NATO is not a national entity pursuing a national agenda; and second, the countries that become part of NATO both have to want that for themselves AND have to be accepted by the nations who are already a part of NATO. This isn't exactly "Third Reich" in form or function.


So, arguments that seek to color NATO as "bad" or "good" are inherently flawed. NATO is a tool of a group of nations; any "good" or "evil" behind NATO's actions inevitably lead back to the member nations.

If people really want to know why western Europe wanted more influence in eastern Europe ... follow the money (come on folks, how many times have we read that on ATS forums?) Which means dig into EU policies and find out which COUNTRIES stand to benefit from those policies. That is where the power games are coming from; they are the financial tail wagging the NATO dog.

The article from eurointelligence.com I pointed out above mentions a significant aspect driving EU policy (and, to some extent, dragging NATO along with it). Like I mentioned before, none of this is cut and dried, but it sure helps to follow another old piece of ATS advice: Deny Ignorance.

Cheers
edit on 10-2-2022 by F2d5thCavv2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 02:19 PM
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Thanks for the replies,

So we can assume you agree with Joe Biden's stance on Ukraine?

It comes down to the competence of leadership

Because I don't trust Biden in the very least, nor his motivations here, and I firmly believe you don't go to war without a clear and concise plan for victory even against the weakest opponent. There will be no winners if we go against Russia

The timing of all this is extremely dangerous, let Europe handle it as it sees fit, and keep a watchful eye.

I am also firmly against going to war over Ukraine, obviously, if he makes a move after an actual NATO member Id change that position. Your assertions make it sound like after Ukraine, Olaf and he will invade Poland and prepare for the push for ole gay Paree




edit on 10-2-2022 by putnam6 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-2-2022 by putnam6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2022 @ 04:31 PM
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originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: putnam6

I can’t help but notice the Western media blaming Russia for aggression, last I checked they’re free to move troops and equipment to wherever they see fit within their own borders. Not sure what the game is but nothing good can come from antagonizing them.



Exactly

That's where Im coming from this isn't 1939 and Putin isn't Hitler and Russia isn't on a trajectory that Nazi Germany had during WWII. There is no hidden Russian air force, there is no hidden Russian U Boat/Submarines. The US could continually supply NATO forces. Most importantly though now in 2022 we have superior conventional forces and likely have the upper hand in Nuclear forces and we even have a Space force.

On top of we have no doubt been preparing for a Russian invasion of Ukraine ever since it was formed, It makes no sense to antagonize him. I completely understand why he would be concerned about a NATO move on Ukraine. Because the first thing the military would go after is Russian ports in Crimea. He isn't gonna give up those ports.

Again if Putin did in Mexico exactly what NATO and the US is trying in Ukraine, the US would be going completely bugchit rightfully so.



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 01:31 AM
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originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: putnam6

I can’t help but notice the Western media blaming Russia for aggression, last I checked they’re free to move troops and equipment to wherever they see fit within their own borders. Not sure what the game is but nothing good can come from antagonising them.

This is the same argument ("his own backyard") that was heard when Hitler reoccupied the Rhineland. So those comparing the situation to 1939 are at least three years premature.
edit on 11-2-2022 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 01:36 AM
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originally posted by: putnam6


Thanks for the replies,

So we can assume you agree with Joe Biden's stance on Ukraine?

It comes down to the competence of leadership

Because I don't trust Biden in the very least, nor his motivations here, and I firmly believe you don't go to war without a clear and concise plan for victory even against the weakest opponent. There will be no winners if we go against Russia

The timing of all this is extremely dangerous, let Europe handle it as it sees fit, and keep a watchful eye.

I am also firmly against going to war over Ukraine, obviously, if he makes a move after an actual NATO member Id change that position. Your assertions make it sound like after Ukraine, Olaf and he will invade Poland and prepare for the push for ole gay Paree


2.10.2022

JOE BIDEN says a WORLD WAR could result if America had to rescue our people in Ukraine!

President shocks Lester Holt at NBC: www.nbcnews.com...

IMO, Commander-in-Chief Biden talks like he wants to be known for starting WWIII. Since he's near the end of his life anyway, why not go out with a BANG-BOOOOM!

What must Biden say or do, for most Americans to understand how dangerous this man is for every one of us, and our children? People need to be 100 times more afraid of what Joe could do to society, than what Covid-19 could do to society.


edit on 2/11/2022 by carewemust because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 03:03 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: putnam6

I can’t help but notice the Western media blaming Russia for aggression, last I checked they’re free to move troops and equipment to wherever they see fit within their own borders. Not sure what the game is but nothing good can come from antagonising them.

This is the same argument ("his own backyard") that was heard when Hitler reoccupied the Rhineland. So those comparing the situation to 1939 are at least three years premature.


More like Czechoslovakia in 1938, but this time, there will likely be a fight.

Cheers



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 10:05 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Brotherman

Just to play devils advocate, why would Putin release anything, why have Biden removed, he is destroying the US from within (IMHO), just let the Democrats take their natural course, stand back and watch the world walk away from an imploding USA.

After Afghanistan, why would anyone want to be associated with them now
It’s terrible to watch what’s happening in the US
And btw, petrol up at $2.00 a litre in Australia, unheard of.


Wait.. you mean gas prices are up globally? That's not just a US thing? That kind of destroys the argument for Biden causing the gas prices to go up... unless Biden somehow affects gas prices globally...



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 01:17 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I fail to see the correlation. Germany had signed agreements, the Russians have done no such thing. It’s perfectly reasonable and acceptable to move troops within your own borders.



posted on Feb, 11 2022 @ 02:18 PM
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News media reporters on the ground in Ukraine are thoroughly perplexed are miffed over why the Ukrainian people are going on about their lives as normal.

The Fox news reporter said "I don't understand it!", three times in a row just now.




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