Divine or Demonic?

I see a lot of Christians here hoping for the end times, and I wonder about many things concerning that issue.

A very general thing I ask myself often is who has the authority to decide that someone is the antichrist, or consecutively the second coming?
Is it the Vatican? Historically, they are the only ones that had the authority to declare someone was divine, rather being demonic. It seems to me a lot of the miracles performed by said hollies would be labeled as demonic under different circumstances. Which makes me wonder is it just the Vatican word that makes all the difference?

I frequently hear Christians say the Vatican can’t be trusted, which leaves us with a big dilemma, which is there is no authority to which we could turn. Instead, we will be left with our own judgment. This is not a bad thing, yet at this point we would be interpreting the bible on our own terms.

If the scenario described by the bible is to pass and one's interpretation does not align with what the Vatican is saying, would one become a heretic?

Does it boil down to personal belief, making it nothing more than believes that are not backed up by an institution, like any other human that has believes?

It just seems very arbitrary when it comes to the distinction between demonic and divine miracles, and who is going to be that arbitrary, if we don’t trust the Vatican?

a reply to: Terpene

Let me answer your question with a question or three:

If you try to start your car ad it doesn't start, do you look to an "authority" to decide something is wrong with your car?

If you walk outside and water is falling from the sky, do you need an "authority" to know it is raining?

If you are walking down the street and a big dog comes toward you, with teeth barred and tail down, so you ask an "authority" if the dog is dangerous?

Likewise, if you see a public figure doing the things the Bible describes when it speaks of the "antichrist," why would you need an "authority" to verify what you can see and hear with your own senses?

We have become a society where we refuse to use our own good judgement, instead appealing to some faceless "authority" to tell us what we should know simply by looking. That, my friend, is faith in man... fallible, imperfect, often malicious man. It is antithetical to the very base tenet of Christianity... indeed, to every organized religion in existence. All are based on faith in someone or something greater than man. Secularism places total faith in man.

Man will fail you, and that failure is coming quickly. Do not place your faith in man, unless you wish to fall alongside those you have placed your faith in.

TheRedneck

Well the Redneck is right, the onus is on you not some man made authority, many believe the “antichrist” will come from the Vatican or be endorsed by the “church” maybe even the Protestant church.
Having said that, many believers will have an opinion, many not to be trusted

But, it’s not and never has been about the antichrist, the whole message of the gospel is to focus on Jesus, His message and loving others as Jesus did

Sadly, me included, many have focused on what we don’t know as Christians and not what we do...Loving and caring, being patient, kind and loving, not judgemental, self righteous and getting angry.

The final days will come, what happens, we will only understand when it’s all done

a reply to: TheRedneck

If I could turn water into wine, and we'd be happily drunk for a thousand years, would that make me divine or demonic?

If I could rise the death, and would do so but only the ones I deem worthy, and it wasn't to your pleasing would that make me Devine or demonic?

a reply to: Terpene

First of all Christianity is NOT a death cult, that was a claim made since heathen Roman times.

Secondly the second coming is NOT the end of the world.

Thirdly Christian or not everyone has to accept that the world DOES have an end and the Christian faith tells us of a NEW Earth and a NEW Heaven that will replace it.

Fourthly everyone dies and for everyone that is pretty much the same as the end of the world as far as there physical death is concerned though it is probably more like the birth into a better bigger world beyond (not all Christians accept this some and some Jewish sects deny that the spirit exists after the death of the body and believe that it has to wait for judgement day before it is awake again, I have had my experiences so believe that life DOES continue and whom was Jesus talking too when he said this "He that believeth in my and lives shall never die and he that believeth in me THOUGH HE WERE (Already) DEAD shall live", yes the usual is that he was talking to the spiritually dead but that is an old argument and I feel it is pretty obvious he was talking to the spirit world there.

People do want our Lord to come back for a simple reason, a GOLDEN AGE and one in which we will see our family's again, our loved ones, our friends and even many of our former enemy's whom will then be like family to us.

Thank you labtech for that insightful reflection

a reply to: LABTECH767

First you are not addressing my questions, you are preaching something you have found to be true for yourself. It reminds me vaguely of politicians that can't or won't answer a question.

Second

First of all Christianity is NOT a death cult, that was a claim made since heathen Roman times.

I missed the part, where I claimed that?

I only have an issue with the "demonic" genocide described if no one can accurately define whos who.

I have this feeling that things will not turn out how Christians hope and that somehow they will find them self's on the accused bench rather than the accusers bench.

I think There is too much unbalanced polarity in most of them to be able to enter a Golden Age.

a reply to: Terpene

Sorry if I came across of accusing you of that I did not intend that at all but was pointing out one of the oldest misunderstandings of Christianity.

As for your point I would ague that the Antichrist will be mistake as a messianic figure and thought to be the good guy by man that will follow him, he may actually be the one prophesied in Islam as there Mahdi.

Or me he may be a secular figure.

The Vatican is just one Christian authority there are many, even they will possibly be deceived at that time or due to a great falling away from the faith they may even vanish leaving just scattered pockets of Christian community's some calling themselves catholic and others by other names just as today before it occurs.

For all we know the Beast is walking on this earth right now.

I would say follow the scripture closely, remember the Vatican has been mistaken in the past and it is not the only authority in the Christian - corporeal - world as all it really represents is the largest church, the Greek Orthodox were once upon a time Catholic but that was before a schism over several points, one being does the holy spirit come also from Jesus which I would say that it does but they are not so sure of that one, the other being about the Papal authority since they did not agree that any bishop was higher than any other bishop so did not recognize the authority of the bishop of Rome though they would definitely recognize the authority of the Apostles whom they are apostles of just like the Catholic Bishop's.

Then there is Antioch in the East, the Syriac Orthodoxy, founded before Rome and not originally a part of Constantine's church since Syria was the first nation to become Christian (sadly later invaded and oppressed by Islam) but eventually due to the fact that they disagreed more with the Greek Orthodox than they did with the Catholic church they joined the Catholic's however for a very long time they were another Christian authority, then there is the Ethiopian Orthodoxy and the Coptic (Egyptian) orthodox Church's.

All of these Church's have there own saint's many of which ARE shared but not all are recognized by all Church's.

All of them are watching and waiting and trying to do the one thing Christ told them to do.

"Feed My Sheep".
"Care for my Sheep".
"Protect my Sheep".

Sadly some of these church's long ago forgot there first love and the later and somewhat heretical since they have left tradition behind Protestantism also is far from perfect on this (no offence to Protestants there are very good points and also some mistakes that all church's have made and when the protestant religion was formed it was actually the Catholic church that was committing heresy by NOT spreading the good news, oh you can see there point they remembered that "What you do not know you will be forgiven for" but they also did so out of corruption that had festered within the heart of the church, Borgia's etc and on that point the former Monk and Priest Martin Luthor was correct, all he really did was spread the good news, what happened after that was probably not what he intended but it happened and I think that God had a plan there though it led to one of the worst periods in Christian history during which millions died fighting over there interpretation of the same religion and in essence killing in the name of Jesus both sides committed blasphemy).

In this the Cathars had a point when they sent a corrupt silk robed bishop packing after pointing out how he did not feed the poor but wore the churches wealth but whether you agree with there teaching or not (and the idea they taught that we were worshipping the wrong God in the God of Vengeance and were meant to worship the God of LOVE).

To get an idea of what the Church was meant to be like you will have to forget the name MARX and his economic ideas and just imagine a commune, literally a communal community that shared the burden, cost of living, teaching and looking after the children, elderly and the sick and acted as a bit family were woman were your sister and men your brothers, they lived for the next life, the true life as they believed it and thought of death to this world as going home to there real world or at least they tried to.


I Know only this, the beast will appear to be respectable, to offer solution and have answers, he will offer great things but in the end will be a tyrant, he will appear to be a man but have all the power of the devil as well as more earthly power.
Some of the descriptions of things that will happen are very reminiscent of robotics such as the image of the beast given the power to kill etc (could be robot soldiers or artificial intelligence surveillance equipment and NAZI/Communist style great leader images or many other possible interpretations).

I know that if you even think it may be the mark of the beast you should then NOT accept it even if that means you can not trade, buy or sell without the mark as the prophecy states will be the case.

a reply to: Terpene

If you have read the bible at all, at least the new testament, you will quickly realize that when the messiah returns, he won't be looking for the approval of any earthly institutions to legitimize him or give him authority. He IS the authority.

No one will be questioning him.

a reply to: LABTECH767

How am I to picture this?
The first to come must be the bad guy, while the second will be the savior?
Will the authorities be in accordance about the Antichrist?
Will some see the savior while some see the Antichrist?
Will this bring Christianity closer or drive them further apart?
What if the first is just waiting for the second to appear, so he can then pose as the savior?

There are so many ways to corrupt this prophecy, I’d rather stay clear of it and think for myself, which is the advice I got in this thread anyway.

There are no right answers to be found and all the answers given are man made, so nothing divine about any of it, just humans interpreting a book the best they currently can.

I think we are far from home and lost in Babylons fog, with no beacon to lead the way...

Thanks for the history lesson

a reply to: Klassified

I think the Antichrist could pull that off...

a reply to: Terpene

Personally I think the Antichrist was invented because the church fathers knew they were lying and expected someone to eventually step forward and tell the real story.
At this point we can assume that won't happen.

And the whole question of divine or demonic is just another continuation of the polar good and evil, somewhat subjective and in pure form thankfully extremely rare.
So I guess it really depends how it effects you, because what's really bad for the Vatican doesn't have to be bad for you or the world.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Klassified

I think the Antichrist could pull that off...

Then you may want to crack open your bible if you have one and read or re-read revelations. The contrast between the Christ and anti-Christ is quite stark. Any serious christian who knows their bible is going to be hard to deceive.

If a heathen like me can see it, so will they.

a reply to: Terpene

If I could turn water into wine, and we'd be happily drunk for a thousand years, would that make me divine or demonic?

If I could rise the death, and would do so but only the ones I deem worthy, and it wasn't to your pleasing would that make me Devine or demonic?

Neither.

You clearly do not understand the concept of divinity.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Are you the authority on defining the concept of divinity? Or is it already defined, and if so by whom?

Is there a concept of divinity that is valid for all Christians?

a reply to: Klassified

I see the bible more as predictive programming than anything divine...

a reply to: Terpene

Are you the authority on defining the concept of divinity? Or is it already defined, and if so by whom?

Is there a concept of divinity that is valid for all Christians?

Divinity is defined by the Divine. A person may accept or reject that definition, but doing so does not change it.

"Divine" is not based on turning water into wine or raising the dead. Satan (Lucifer) can pull that off too. Divinity is the absence of a Creator. God is Divine because God has no creator before Him. He owes His existence to no one.

Man has a Creator. Man owes his existence to God, for without God there would be no man.

Angels have a Creator. Angels (including demons, which are simply angels who have rebelled and been cast out of God's Presence) owe their existence to God. Without God, there would be no angels... or demons.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Klassified

I see the bible more as predictive programming than anything divine...

Okay, but you're asking questions about biblical characters and narratives. So whether or not you believe anything in its pages, the only answer to those questions are in the bible that speak about the character and story. It would seem to me that's the most logical place to look and read about it. The questions you have asked are answered there.

Not a criticism, just an observation. If I want to know about the golden fleece, I read Homer's Odyssey. If I want to know about the antichrist, I read the bible.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Then how come you have the audacity to say my understanding of divinity is wrong, according to whom? The divine? Where did the divine defined divinity for us humans to actually understand what it is?

As you said God is the only one who has an understanding of the divine, you certainly have one based on your limited human understanding so do I, is it right is it wrong... I'd tend to say we are probably both wrong in our assertion on divinity.
I would never pretend to understand God and his essence, to the point of calling your understanding of God erroneous.

a reply to: Klassified

It's still just words in a book, that will be interpreted differently by diffrent people.

What if I'm more interested in the diffrent interpretations, as there is obviously no authority to tell whose interpretation is right, it comes to personal understanding and interpretations.