Western Esoteric/Christian help

Hey folks, I've been studying Western Esotericism as of lately and specifically in this topic the arch angels.

In reference to conjuring an archangel, I was reading that you need to sing their names. Are there specific 'mantras' or 'chants' that are used for these angels? I can understand why you would need to sing their name, as a sign of beauty and respect, but is that the case..?

Also another question. As I was studying the Kabbalah and Zodiac, I came across the Sefirot and the archangels designated to each. Under each angel, there were more descriptions:

For Michael, Bene Elohim.

For Gabriel, Cherubim.

For Raphael, Malakim.

(so on for the remainder).

What are these in reference to? I know the words meaning, Bene Elohim, Cherubim, but what is its relation to those specific angels..? Furthermore, I have a list of the 'assistant' angels for each Sefirot, so what I'm look for is clarification as to what Gabriel has to do with the Cherubim or Michael with the Bene Elohim.

Specifically became intrigued because Bene Elohim, plays into the story of the Nephilim.

This is BS.

Agnostic crap designed to mislead true believers, kinda like this experimental drug called a vaccine.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
This is BS.

Agnostic crap designed to mislead true believers, kinda like this experimental drug called a vaccine.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

Didn't really answer my question...and I'm not really sure what you're referring to as "bs"...

ETA: Western Esotericism is the furthest thing from Agnosticism that you can be...Are you aware? Esoterics would be the opposite of angostics...no?

Off Topic: How I look at it is Christianity is like a 2nd grade reading book, compared to Esotericism which is college level reading of the same material...

Googling each will give lots of information. For example, Gabriel is an Archangel that leads the cherubim. The Bene Elohim focus on giving glory to God; archangel Michael leads this angelic rank.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
This is BS.

Agnostic crap designed to mislead true believers, kinda like this experimental drug called a vaccine.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

You mean gnostic or?¿

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

As far as "singing" their names, I believe you're thinking of using the Enochian language. I remember something about a particular angelic language where you have to sortof "sing" each individual letter's sound when speaking - so for example, saying the word "magic" might sound like "mmm aaahhh gzzhhh iiihhh caaahhh", with various tones, speeds, inflections etc. depending on the purpose of what you're saying.

originally posted by: nugget1
Googling each will give lots of information. For example, Gabriel is an Archangel that leads the cherubim. The Bene Elohim focus on giving glory to God; archangel Michael leads this angelic rank.

Thank you, I suppose I just needed a starting point for my brain to boot up. This helped, thank you. Will further my research now

a reply to: trollz

yes, this is what I was referring to, thank you as well for your information

Here's what I was talking about - skip to like 0:16 in where he starts.

originally posted by: trollz
Here's what I was talking about - skip to like 0:16 in where he starts.

Not necessarily, AC has more of a malevolent tone, like he's a wizard (....oh nvm), I'm talking a little more benevolent.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

Do as thou wilt and all that brother neutron, but I do have one bit to offer that you might consider. And that is maybe you should research a bit more in-depth before you start calling entities that may or may not be angels?

I only suggest this because in my own open-minded search for answers to our greatest mystery I finally figured out that I could save some time and avoid many undesired outcomes or attachments by looking at where the great mages of the past ended up.

Like John Dee. That's the best start of what you're currently looking for btw. John Dee, Edward Kelley, and the Enochian Language. Or Aleister Crowley---he used Enochian calls & magic.

But did the "powers" they sought to wrangle to their own purpose benefit them? Or consume them?

Elohim is Babylonian, and is basically Sumerias Annunaki, a pantheon. It eventually became another name synonymous with the monotheistic Yahweh.
Elohim could mean Shining one(s) depending on the source.

Could just look up Christian Angel hierarchies, which actually look like ferocious mythical monsters or constructs. If anything, for Michael, it would reference to the serpentine, serpent like Seraphim.

Also, Serpent could of meant Shining in ancient Hebrew too, and there a whole passage about God using snakes, punishing the Israelites...again.

Cherubim ether got depicted as a giant compass for the horoscope, God's pimped out beast of a ride, or Satan punishing man for it Sins.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

I would advise against this strongly. Conjuring implies that you have power over entities, and you don't. None shall command the soldiers of Heaven but God. Supposing that you were lucky enough to stumble across what you needed to know, and somehow managed to use it correctly- what you think to be conjuring would be more like opening a door to another place, a sinister place, and there is NO WAY to control what would come through, let alone shut the door once it is open.

Think Event Horizon, the movie.

If you are intent on pushing your luck, then check your private messages. I pray you don't.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
This is BS.

Agnostic crap designed to mislead true believers, kinda like this experimental drug called a vaccine.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

And so are arrogant fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist crap designed to mislead true believers, like vaccines
You are no better than a dictator demanding, void of love
Jesus didn’t teach what you demand, He taught love and freewill, accepting those who have a different belief

As for angels, they are Gods messengers, no amazing super powers that I know of, nothing that justifies worship

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
This is BS.

Agnostic crap designed to mislead true believers, kinda like this experimental drug called a vaccine.

a reply to: JimmyNeutr0n

Spot on but to expand on it.


Most western Esoteric corruption and made up things that are called Christian but are NOT mainstream or original Christianity are just new age mumbo jumbo.

During the earliest period of Christianity there were the true believers called Followers of the Way and later Christians and there were other spin off belief's that took Christianity and entwined it with paganism or used it as a cult metaphor to hide other religions behind it like a screen such as the Gnostic's, not all Gnostic's were unchristian but mostly there idea of Christianity was alien to the true form though a Form of Gnosis did and does exist within mainstream, the secrets given by Christ to his apostles and the fact that there are secret's held by the big church's such as prophetic visions of saint's that were often too shocking to reveal or other secrets that were only revealed hundreds of years after they were given to saints.

Modern Esoteric Christianity is basically new age paganism that is then mixed with Christian symbolism perverting the meaning of the symbolism or even becoming outright heretical in it's NEW beliefs.

Basically it is NOT Christianity though many good soul's are misguided by it and fall into it's clutches (hey non of us are perfect and there are probably many whom are better Christians mixed up with that than many of us whom comment against it despite this but they are still walking the wrong path, there is only the Way, the Lord himself.



I would suggest if you find mainstream - WESTERN - Christianity too stuffy, too full of men in frock's, too boring and with preachers and priests that stand there talking about things you don't identify with them try some of the more Charismatic branches but there are many TRUE Christian church's that will make you feel at home, DON'T let cultural or racial barriers block you from learning about and finding them as there are a great many charismatic African community church's both aligned and independent.

Though I would rather steer you toward the mainstream.

But don't let us put you off, find Christ, just KEEP ON LOOKING for him and you will find him when and how he wants you to.

Seek and you shall find, Knock and it shall be opened to you, Ask and you shall Receive.

(you know right from wrong and God will not give his children bad things no matter how much they ask so ask from within the spirit and teachings of Christ and you shall receive, it hurt's when we ask for those we love to stay with us or for us to go to them and leave this world behind as may be the case but that is not how God work's, we are here for a reason even if we don't see it or don't want to see it ourselves so don't fall into the devil's trap of asking for riches, clothing, the girl you think you love, that car you always wanted but trust God to give you instead what you need, sometimes we need a Lesson and it can be harsh and bitter but better to learn it here and go home whole then learn it after the fact and live in eternal regret, so rule of thumb say to yourself If I had the mind of Christ what would he ask and then ask that, when you understand Christ enough to ask for what he WOULD ask for I am certain your request will be not only heard but granted and NEVER seek power, god will give it if that is his plan for you, power is like poison to the soul, a child has to learn to walk and if it is carried everywhere it never will).


But if you have found Christ no matter how unlikely the place don't let me dissuade you from following him, that is the last thing I would ever want to do, my belief and my opinion should not take you away from My Lord EVER, just try to be certain that it IS Christ you have found, there is only ONE WAY.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Just to get this correct, in your opinion, Western Esotericism is a false following because they follow ALL the books and gospels including the ones deemed unworthy by the council of Nicea to be apart of Christian cannon, but the Christians/Catholics have it more in step because they worship God on Sunday, the day of worship of the Sun God Sol in Roman Paganism... Tell me again, who are the Pagans? Worshipping the Christ, who died for 3 days and was reborn? Sounds pretty....astrological...I think there's a deeper meaning to this all. Wasn't the story of Jesus told countless times before in many past cultures? Didn't they all preach the same ideas? Is Catholicism/Christianity really that far off from Buddhism and Paganism...?

You can assume I'm downplaying the existence of God. Or maybe you just don't understand MY understanding of what God encompasses and means to me. I'm on a quest. I don't stop at red lights in learning and understanding this story. I keep going and persevere, even at a ripe age.

Lets be real. At the core of Christianity, just as at the core of ANY religion, is the ascension of the spiritual self PAST the this material world. Is that not true for Christianity (Jacobs ladder for example)? How about Buddhism (Chakras)? Confucianism (Virtues)? Western Esotericism is not necessarily a religious following or teaching, sir. I've come to find it as a study of theological perspectives across the board. Imho (because many people wouldn't agree with me), is the gnosis (knowledge) of perception and past experiences. You can actually be a devout Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or anything for that matter, and still study Esotericism.

Don't be frieghtened by the words the all-father Pope has set out for you to cringe at. Gnosis/Gnostic is a Greek word for knowledge of the spirit.

Was the Apocrypha of John or Gospel of Thomas a heresy? Or do you just intentionally ignore the fact that other holy gospels exist, under the Abrahamic religions none-the-less...Because in both those stories, God spoke DIRECTLY to both the writers of the gospels. Wouldn't that matter to you if you were a Christian..?

It's actually people like you that lead me on this path. With your bland "Jesus is the way, because God sent him" and not explaining WHY in great depth and detail, sent me on my quest...Your version has too many contradictions within itself, imho

Esoteric, from the Greek root word, esōterō, which means "Inner", which we translate in this sense to the "spirit" of human. And thus the teaching of how the spirit can elevate itself in a material world to become closer to God. That IS the Kabbalah and Tree of Life.

So tell me...

This quest of knowledge and understanding will never stop because the Divine granted us the serenity of sentience.

One of the greatest pieces I read in my study:

The One rules all. Nothing has authority over it. It is the God. It is Father of everything, Holy One The invisible one over everything. It is uncontaminated Pure light no eye can bear to look within. The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. Nothing is above it. Nothing rules it. Since everything exists within it It does not exist within anything. Since it is not dependent on anything It is eternal. It is absolutely complete and so needs nothing. It is utterly perfect Light. The One is without boundaries Nothing exists outside of it to border it The One cannot be investigated Nothing exists apart from it to investigate it The One cannot be measured Nothing exists external to it to measure it The One cannot be seen For no one can envision it The One is eternal For it exists forever The One is inconceivable For no one can comprehend it The One is indescribable For no one can put any words to it. The One is infinite light Purity Holiness Stainless, The One is incomprehensible Perfectly free from corruption. Not “perfect” Not “blessed” Not “divine” But superior to such concepts. Neither physical nor unphysical Neither immense nor infinitesimal It is impossible to specify in quantity or quality For it is beyond knowledge. The One is not a being among other beings It is vastly superior But it is not “superior.” It is outside of realms of being and time For whatever is within realms of being was created And whatever is within time had time allotted to it The One receives nothing from anything. It simply apprehends itself in its own perfect light The One is majestic. The One is measureless majesty Chief of all Realms Producing all realms Light Producing light Life Producing life Blessedness Producing blessedness Knowledge Producing knowledge Good Producing goodness Mercy Producing mercy Generous Producing generosity [It does not “possess” these things.] It gives forth light beyond measure, beyond comprehension. [What can I say?] His realm is eternal, peaceful, silent, resting, before everything. He is the head of every realm sustaining each of them through goodness.

I WALLOW in the thought of having to call "God", a "God". For It is more than just a "God". It is Everything, and Everything is It.


"I'm a Christian"

But you don't know where the words North, South, East and West come from, which you use in your daily life. 4 Pagan Dwarves that held the Firmament above Earth.

"I'm a Christian"

But you don't know where the medical symbol comes from, which you see daily in your life. The Caduceus.

"I'm a Christian"

But you don't know where the cross symbol comes from, but you worship it in your daily life. The Ankh, of eternal life.

How about your Christmas Trees, and Easter Eggs? Straight from the annals of Paganism.

Sunday? Dies Solis, Sun's day.

Saturday? Dies Saturni (Latin), Saturn's day.

Monday? Dies Lunae (Latin), Moon's day.

Tuesday? Tiwesdaeg (Anglo), God of Wars day.

Wednesday? Wodnesdaeg (Anglo), God of Gods day.

Thursday? Thursdaeg (Anglo), Thors day.

Friday? Frigedaeg (Anglo), Friggs day.

You end your prayers with a ode to an Egyptian God, Amun. Guess what Amun-Ra was the God of? The universe and the sun (respectively Amun/Ra). A word taken from Jews who used it during their enslavement in Egypt 1000's of years ago.

Traditions don't die easy.

How about your "holy grail"? Another Pagan tradition, where-as a cup is venerated to godly beings. A cup being a metaphor for a womb.

Popes Mitre? Taken straight out of the Pagan playbook. The Mitre was a headdress worn by priests of Heracles.

Priest robes? Predates Christian cannon where Pagan priests wore different colored garbs and robes to signify their knowledge and place in society.

Lets continue.

Feast of Annunciation? Celebration of the Spring Equinox.

Celebrating birthdays? That's a PAGAN tradition. Jesus' first birthday was celebrated on Jan 5th, and over 3 centuries LATER (because again, Christians didn't celebrate birthdays, which was a Pagan tradition).

St. Valentines day? Did the guy even exist? Because before that "christian holiday", it was Lipercalia, a day of sex-fueled orgies, blood and sacrifice.

Christs day (Christmas)? Saturnalia, a Pagan festival that started in the 4th week of December to celebrate harvest. On this day, no one was executed in Rome, and some even granted clemency. Public feasts held and gifts exchanged. (Lets not get started on the winter equinox).

Christmas Caroling? More like...wassailing, a Pagan tradition during the December 'holidays' where they go around singing praises to Gods/Godesses.

All Hallows Eve? Lets try Samhain, a Celtic Pagan holiday celebrated at the end of the year (Oct 31st-Nov 1st), ushering in the "dark half" of the year.

Bridal veils...? Yep, also rooted in Roman Paganism, where the bride would wear it to "ward off" evil spirits.

What is your gnosis? I'd love for anyone to tell me an original Christian teaching that hasn't been lifted from a previous religion and converted to fit their own set of dogmas.

Baptism? More like ritual cleansing, which was celebrated for 100's of years before Christ and John the Baptist, even in Jewish cannon...

originally posted by: JimmyNeutr0n
a reply to: LABTECH767

Just to get this correct, in your opinion, Western Esotericism is a false following because they follow ALL the books and gospels including the ones deemed unworthy by the council of Nicea to be apart of Christian cannon, but the Christians/Catholics have it more in step because they worship God on Sunday, the day of worship of the Sun God Sol in Roman Paganism... Tell me again, who are the Pagans? Worshipping the Christ, who died for 3 days and was reborn? Sounds pretty....astrological...I think there's a deeper meaning to this all. Wasn't the story of Jesus told countless times before in many past cultures? Didn't they all preach the same ideas? Is Catholicism/Christianity really that far off from Buddhism and Paganism...?

You can assume I'm downplaying the existence of God. Or maybe you just don't understand MY understanding of what God encompasses and means to me. I'm on a quest. I don't stop at red lights in learning and understanding this story. I keep going and persevere, even at a ripe age.

Lets be real. At the core of Christianity, just as at the core of ANY religion, is the ascension of the spiritual self PAST the this material world. Is that not true for Christianity (Jacobs ladder for example)? How about Buddhism (Chakras)? Confucianism (Virtues)? Western Esotericism is not necessarily a religious following or teaching, sir. I've come to find it as a study of theological perspectives across the board. Imho (because many people wouldn't agree with me), is the gnosis (knowledge) of perception and past experiences. You can actually be a devout Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or anything for that matter, and still study Esotericism.

Don't be frieghtened by the words the all-father Pope has set out for you to cringe at. Gnosis/Gnostic is a Greek word for knowledge of the spirit.

Was the Apocrypha of John or Gospel of Thomas a heresy? Or do you just intentionally ignore the fact that other holy gospels exist, under the Abrahamic religions none-the-less...Because in both those stories, God spoke DIRECTLY to both the writers of the gospels. Wouldn't that matter to you if you were a Christian..?

It's actually people like you that lead me on this path. With your bland "Jesus is the way, because God sent him" and not explaining WHY in great depth and detail, sent me on my quest...Your version has too many contradictions within itself, imho

Esoteric, from the Greek root word, esōterō, which means "Inner", which we translate in this sense to the "spirit" of human. And thus the teaching of how the spirit can elevate itself in a material world to become closer to God. That IS the Kabbalah and Tree of Life.

So tell me...

Not to argue about a point but I thought that you were going on about NEW AGE Christianity which is NOT original Christianity.

BUT if you want to find out a version of Christianity as close to the original as Godly Possible then please do not use Gnostic sources (which are definitely NOT original Christianity and many of those were written in the late second to the third and fourth century also so be astute in what you recognize which is all the Conclave of Nicea really tried to do - though yes they did alter the church in forming it into a state religion with high status that then attracted the worse men to the job's resulting in the likes of the Borgia etc nearly a thousand years later).

Then I would definitely and most seriously suggest you look in only two places with a third possible.


The FIRST is the SYRIAC ORTHODOX Church which though independent and NOT joined to the catholic church in the 18th century, they maintained there original doctrine and traditions however and even hold there mass in Aramaic, note Aramaic the day to day language spoken by the first Jewish Christian's in there day to day lives alongside the more ancient Hebrew which was really just used to read the Scrolls for the most part.

Of NOTE which is factual but infuriates many other church's is the fact that there ORIGINAL form of Christianity was so close to the Catholic church's (despite the old argument about the pope being chief among the bishop's when earlier all bishop's were equal and the old argument about the Catholic changing the creed to include the holy spirit coming from Christ as well as the father (which since the father is in the son and the son in the father is actually true and he did say he would SEND the comforter) was actually almost identical to the Western Catholic church in almost every point but they did keep some autonomy and it did split the Syriac church for a time, however most of the church that refused to join has re-joined so that split was mostly temporary.

And then I would suggest as your second choice of TRUE sources would be the Coptic church, however they were the one that had the greatest battle with the heretical Gnostic's, to understand why I will remind you of the fire of the library of Alexandria and how the Romans of the time reported Scribed running from the flames there beards and robes on fire and being burned to death to save there precious scroll's, this knowledge that survived from the great library was then hidden within the religious precincts of the many religions and temples of pre-Christian Egypt and when Christianity reached Egypt the heir's of this Knowledge especially before the war between Christians and Idol Worshippers that occurred there (most of those idols with there faces lopped off in Egypt were actually defaced by Christians during this period in there battle for the soul of there nation though the Muslims also did damage when they conquered it) then infiltrated and hid there knowledge among the early Coptic (Egyptian) Christian's, this led to heretical movements springing up were ever these heretical NONE Christian heresy's had been planted and spreading throughout the ailing Roman Empires sphere of dominance leading to serious corruptions that caused other Christians to lash out against them though there secret heretical and NONE Christian secrets possibly passed down to the likes of the Rosicrucian's (Illuminati I am not talking about fake Rosicrucian's but the original followers of the ALLEGORICAL father Rosencrantz and the golden and Rosy Cross whom were misguided Gnostic's of the worst kind and were the original Illuminati or rather the likely source of them with Adam Weishaupt's father having been said to be a Rosicrution as well as a Lawyer by some sources and from thence also into the Freemasons - whom are far from as old as they claim but whom do have some very ancient knowledge mixed in with a lot of hocus pocus and mumbo jumbo, just another misguided gnostic group).

Lastly I Would suggest the Ethiopian Orthodoxy among whom many lost texts that were later verified as real were preserved such as the Book of Enoch.

So NO I DO NOT accept those books and even frown upon many of the writings of the Apocryphal texts.

A prime example of a false text is the so called Infant gospel of st Thomas in which child Jesus murders to bullies and makes a flock of sparrows, it drew on a real story from ancient Egypt that was probably just a folk tale and twisted it into a blackening of Jesus character, in the original tale it was not by the Jordon but by the bank's of the Nile were child Jesus was supposed to have taken two balls of clay and fashioned them into TWO DOVES

a reply to: LABTECH767

He then breathed life into them but in the later GNOSTIC text the so called Infant Gospel of Thomas which is in my opinion a heretical and blasphemous work did this by the Jordon but it was Sparrows?.

As he entered Jerusalem he saw a fig tree that was not bearing fruit as it should have been so he told it to wither but in the Heretical text of the false Infant Gospel of Thomas (late second century or early third so definitely NOT written by Thomas and also not part of Syriac Tradition either) he as a child killed two children that were bullies causing one of THEM to wither up and become dry on the ground, this was later taken as fact by the early Islamic cult which preach it to be true but they also believe other lies and claim Jesus was not even crucified, was not the son of God and was only a lowly prophet whom is a servant and slave of there prophet.

So I WOULD Advise you to tread lightly in that particular minefield many of those texts were NOT included because they were not verifiable and were of suspect origin but OTHERS like the book of Enoch were simply not included because they were not seen as relevant or else not understandable to the scholars at that time.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Would the Book of Enoch be considered gnostic text?

If you ask any Christian about the story of Lucifers defeat, they will cite Michael casting him into the abyss. Where does that story even come from? Enoch, which predates John the Elders Book of Revelation.

I Book of Enoch 10:11

And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness

Where does the name Lucifer originate, because even the official cannon only refers to Lucifer as one of the 200 watchers that fell to Earth, not an 'under-world' being called Satan/Devil.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

There is Samael, the accuser/tempter, Semjaza, the one who lead the fallen watchers in the Book of Enoch and the great dragon (only interpreted 100's of years later to be "the devil"/"Satan")

Break that verse down though. O Lucifer (the bringer of knowledge to man), son of the morning star (son of GOD)

My question is, the entire cannon of official catholic teachings is also based around the teachings of the unofficial christian gnostic works, and furthermore through-out all the religions. So what gives the contradiction in choosing what books to read and what ones not to read?

Not for nothing, the gospels in the Nag Hammadi library are all carbon dated back to between 100-200 AD.