Is Christ God.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: Smigg

I pose to you:

Is Mohammed God? Krishna? Budda? Yahweh? Well...

With billions of people...their beliefs in those above as a God, gods, messengers....

That being understood...ALL are parts of the whole.


Their beliefs. Your beliefs, my beliefs. Totally different.

Are they? I think "belief" is all that matters.

Not to argue about "who"...and kill each other over it.

It does matter who is the one true God, like you said their are billions of people with there own beliefs and it matters to every single one of them regardless of religion.

I agree though it's not good to argue and kill each other over who is God, healthy discussion doesn't hurt though if able.

a reply to: Smigg

You think like me.

Years playing R n R tours around cultures different than mine...opened my eyes.

Married at 18, and already a hippie...we embraced the world.

We realized its a big bunch of crayons. Still a crayon whatever color.

Such with different beliefs. Who am I to say anyone else is wrong when I'd expect them to not say I was? Respect.

Gods. GOD. Must 'b one...cause I can't build no bird n make it fly away!

Smigg: From the 60's rock era:

"Child is Father to the Man".-W. Wordsworth-"My heart leaps up".

Metaphor there...Christ, God, Jesus, Son, Father...with special guest..? The Holy Spirit!

Boogles the understanding of any "Trinity"!!!

Another semi-analogous religious '60-ism : "I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we...are all together"!- Beatles
✌️

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
Smigg: From the 60's rock era:

"Child is Father to the Man".-W. Wordsworth-"My heart leaps up".

Metaphor there...Christ, God, Jesus, Son, Father...with special guest..? The Holy Spirit!

Boogles the understanding of any "Trinity"!!!

Another semi-analogous religious '60-ism : "I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we...are all together"!- Beatles
✌️

I am the walrus, great Beatles song.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Smigg

The answer when researched outside the dogma of old Christendom and it's clergy dominated by Catholicism for centuries, is actually no.

Some that have studied this topic have come to this conclusion, as some have posted in this thread, as to why and how.

I have discussed this topic many times with many people over the years, I have found many Christians have more of a emotional connection to this doctrine that obscures their ability to see the truth of what the bible teaches on this topic.

In the future the Trinity will be viewed the same as the purgatory is viewed in 2021.

Also Jesus is an English human name, he wasn't called that before he came to earth, he had another name before that.
Wondering about that, research it, that name is actually found in the bible.

I believe its Yeshua ?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I go with the witness of Peter, who said, "My Lord and my God!"

Peter was a LOT closer to the Source than any of us are, so I trust him.

But he didn't say my creator. The bible mentions other Gods but there is only one who created everything.
Jesus clearly did not say he was the creator.

The bible says no man has seen God.

This distinguishes between our savior and our creator.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist.
And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.


And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

We are to pray only to the father
Matthew 6:9
So then, this is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name.

Jesus prayed, “Not My will, but Yours, be done!” Luke 22:42.

Jesus says we are one with him just as he is one with the father.
Does this make us all God?


God chose Jesus for this mission, did he choose himself?

He rewarded him for completing this mission of his own free will to be seated at his right hand.

Did he reward himself?

Did Satan offer Gods creation to him to rule over?


Bible says that God is not man
‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible
‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

90 Verses in the Bible say Jesus is not God
www.tellmeaboutislam.com...

a reply to: mysterioustranger

In the ancient and present world many gods exist; the idea that there is only one is a newer posit. In the way the title of god worked it was like teacher to the ignorant. Here are these people picking fruit and harvesting grain the trees get cut down and fields go barren and they starve... someone wise or learned hears of this shows them the seeds in the fruit, how to treat the ground how to plant and grow more fruit once they know how? The person leaves. No longer on the brink of starvation due to ignorance? All of their lives were saved. Those people then thought of them as a "god" like the Jesus person doing the same with fish... or follow me if you want to play god.

There is a famous phrase when becoming a god got old and others wise to what they were really after "Leave the raft instead of carrying it on your head." It was a threat as in you better stay on the island and live to the end of your days as you will have no return here again without it ending sooner than later.

Cargo cults... Prince Phillip Movement

It didn't take much like South America bowing to Cortes without a fight all was fine well and good until the conquistadors started killing and raping them. Of course "inquisition" was just an excuse to keep going back with more and more troops and arms to rape and kill the innocent with the excuse that they were ignorant savages still banging rocks together questing for fire. The same thing still goes on with the term of "missionary" to this day.

Nothing like that has ever been worth supporting.

It's like whats new? So we can flock to see if we can buy it whore it sell it out and if it isn't anything profitable or beneficial to us? Kill it or destroy it.

When the "them" never had that as a goal? One has to wonder when the "us" part decided there was ever a Vs. other than in their own narrative as an excuse. I swear the spear was 40 feet long and the chief had eyes the size of manhole covers.

Wisdom... all one has to do is sit there unceasingly where ever that is, to experience all things beginning to end that can occur to a sitting person, same with standing and laying down.

Keeping calm about whatever arises however? Is the other part of that.

The Hebrew "god" in the old testament that Jesus sits on one side of like he says he's gonna eventually do(thanks Disraeli I wasn't aware of those plans until reading your post) didn't keep calm at all... to those more advanced on the path? Failure. Hint Hint yeah feel free to fail just like your God did if that's the plan. I'd advise not to but not really concerned about it as it isn't my intention to do such a thing.

Some in the idea of one god have the concept of Janus or two in union yab/yum male female indistinguishable with a child born or yet to be born aka in the bardos of becoming. So when people identify that as a He? I am sure when the world goes all male from the belief that there is only a he in that and there is then only one female once they separate? Gee thanks for nothing you stupid idiots. If then it wasn't for the goddess concept and worship it would be annihilation... but of course in that book it says dont suffer a witch to live and well thats trying to kill off those...

So now one has to assume it is really a path of nihilism and excuses to become cause for an extinction event... thinking that's the only way out of slavery and bondage of one's past intentions of cause that has effected so many lives of others. So it's obvious that tell everyone god is a male and then kill anyone that might worship the goddess as a witch... only says kill all my family for me as I never wanted to be born or exist to begin with.

Anyways such a silly thing but thats nearly how it has always been, fortunately people take refuge in other things and something akin to amnesia occurs where such a thing is not the focus of their lives day and night, and in those moments they can assess that when not focused or having that the center of their life that it got better or worse.

When I look at that path there isn't one there's commandments and a suggestion to meditate day and night. Then theres instead of calling them disciples we'll call them son now everyone is named Mohammad and Allah is the scapegoat we blame everything on with the excuse of we accepted Jesus and the old testament our god didn't he hides his face like a woman...

Seeing the truth in those things as what the plot of plan is, is to see it clearly not enamored and swept away by what they may have to offer... of course truth means suffering and the way out of it once exposing that truth is correcting one's speech, livelihood, vocation, etc and refrain from what is false.

Grass has many names, how is that not the devil? If grass had one name? It would be aware of all other grass as an intelligent life all over the world... and that very idea that grass being omnipotent or have god/goddess like powers has always scared people right back into control and confusing others on purpose.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The standard teaching of the church has always been that Christ is BOTH God AND man. The two in combination.

People need to think for themselves because the world is corrupt and full of lies and they cannot come to any conclusion unless the read the bible themselves and not just once, and pray to understand and ask to know what is the truth.

Why would a person not read their bible and see what it says.
Standard thinking, where would that lead in a world where nearly everyone is on the wide road?

‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: DISRAELI

God proclaimed David to be his "son" too. Plus, the Book of Job speaks of the many "Sons of God".

And then there's that time when Jesus admonished Mary Magdeline, saying "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

Exactly!

a reply to: LABTECH767

He sent his Son whom it says he CHOSE for this.
He didn't say he came himself even in the parable about it.

Jesus told a parable in Luke 20:9–16 to explain why the Word had to become flesh. “A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.

“Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’ But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”

a reply to: SeaWorthy
This is a situation where people have already done the work, going carefully through the WHOLE Bible, and sorting out the implications about the relationship between Father and Son. Going back to the old topics and arguing them through again seems to me to be a re-invention of the wheel, a waste of time akin to saying "I won't use this carefully surveyed and updated published map, I will go out and walk the countryside and make my own". There is a point where the obsessive individualism of the modern day ceases to be sensible.

For the basic doctrine, we only have to look at John ch1, which clearly identifies someone who was on the "Creator" side of the boundary between Creator and creation, and then "became man".

a reply to: Crowfoot

The biblical account answers every question we have asked about why things are as they are.
Why are we like we are. What causes a person to have a conscience when it is properly trained it is a powerful thing.
The bible says Gods word is written in our hearts and in our minds if we only ask to see his will, if we are humble enough not to decide by our own will we get truth.


Like children the things we want with out lack of understanding and the things that look "good" may not be good for us.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SeaWorthy
This is a situation where people have already done the work, going carefully through the WHOLE Bible, and sorting out the implications about the relationship between Father and Son. Going back to the old topics and arguing them through again seems to me to be a re-invention of the wheel, a waste of time akin to saying "I won't use this carefully surveyed and updated published map, I will go out and walk the countryside and make my own". There is a point where the obsessive individualism of the modern day ceases to be sensible.

For the basic doctrine, we only have to look at John ch1, which clearly identifies someone who was on the "Creator" side of the boundary between Creator and creation, and then "became man".

I don't personally see discussing things as arguing.

MATTHEW 18:3

and said, “Verily I say unto you, unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I don't see the knowledge of men as the final on anything but instead to pray to understand and "keep on" praying and asking and reading.

Looking from a completely humble point of view we all must see for ourselves and stop following the many corrupt people who have taught about God throughout the ages.
If I am wrong I only pray I will never mislead anyone to stray from the truth of Gods word.

a reply to: SeaWorthy
Well, if you want to work through the old discussion all over again, at least have a look at the arguments which were being used at the time. Look at the writings of Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria and the others and see how they reached their conclusions. If there is a beaten track, it is foolish to ignore it.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SeaWorthy
Well, if you want to work through the old discussion all over again, at least have a look at the arguments which were being used at the time. Look at the writings of Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria and the others and see how they reached their conclusions. If there is a beaten track, it is foolish to ignore it.

When I was much younger and beginning I read everything.
I now realize prayer is far better than scholars.

If there is a beaten track, it is foolish to ignore it.

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Again, the narrow road will not be filled with the mainstream who follow the wide path.

You are much more educated on these things than I or many here clearly but I don't think God is impressed with our great human learning.
We learn from listening to our heart and praying to understand, looking (for ourselves).

Otherwise we could end back in another age where People are told what to think about God and told NOT to read the bible or look for themselves.

Psalm 118:8
It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.

originally posted by: Akragon
Im reluctant to involve myself in these debate anymore... that part of my life is behind me though im compelled to add my two cents... its still hard to resist lol

All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and earth.... Mat 28

IF said power was given to him, there IS clearly a greater power then himself...

He also establishes his submission to the Father saying specifically that the Father is greater then himself, and further more he can do nothing OF himself but it is the Father that does the work

Also as previously stated above.... there is NO trinity in the bible...

1 John 5:7 is the only passage that actually has the trinitarian formula... and it doesn't appear in any of the earliest greek texts that exist.

said trinity has one to believe all three parts of the "godhead" are equal... though as i've already said, Jesus maintains he is NOT equal to the Father...

Even Paul in his opening greetings in his books seems to remove the "holy spirit" from them so Paul knows nothing about the holy spirit being equal to God or Jesus

And Revelation, the last book added to the bible... happen to come along after they established the trinity as standard procedure in Christian beliefs... In my opinion it was added to give weight to the idea that Jesus was God because it states it very clearly

Thus... the trinity is a lie...

Jesus is not, and never considered himself God

Paul, the author of Philippians 2:6, claims the direct antithetical position to what you claim in your post.

The Trinity never made sense to me, nor does ever really get explained, and just seems too cryptic. The Trinity might be a an old Gnostic concept, that later was adopted. If I remember it was believed to have been Polytheistic by some critics(long enough before Islam).

Oddly enough, Hollowed be his name, which implies to Separate.

Thing is, Jesus never really mentions the Holy Spirit, and is usually on applied to him by a 2nd or 3rd party. He does use "Father" alot, and compares himself as child in a sense.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

That book is like the US constitution of that area and peoples of the time... it was gleaned and garnered from all over their range.

Ever look at the Bhavacakra? Those 12 links are the disciples in Christianity, those 12 links are the Saints in Catholicism, those 12 links are Mohammad in Islam. Those 12 links are the zodiac marrying the earth to the sky. What many are not told that have studied that thing? is there is 13 of them. Typically they are given one to study and I don't know whos it originally was.

The pali cannon is thousands of years older and more interesting and complete... there's real versions of that "bible" some of it comes from the dhammapada.

My "lord" is Shakayamuni not some shadowy might have existed, might not have existed Jesus Christ and manufactured histories. Of all religions when "impure" are guilty of making it that way.

Impractical matters like me telling you all of this...

Good day.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

Even amongst themselves the Apostles argued and they loved one another and knew one another as brothers in Christ as well as knowing the Lord himself having walked with him after he called them.

An argument could be made we are all partially divine but if we give in to evil we insult that divinity, God gave us life from himself when he breathed it into us and gave us our soul's.

But to say that would invite fallacy and error since believe in ones own divinity would breed pride and worse within us unlike the perfect man Jesus.

Why was Jesus the NEW ADAM and the Perfect Man.

He Obeyed the father and could not and would not disobey him, you can't disobey yourself.

Man was created in God's image and yet in this world it is corrupted and can only be made whole in the life to come through Jesus.

He is the Word of God, with God in the beginning before all creation was made, before the Angels were created even and many of them are as God's to us though before God they are simply other children, most often more obedient and faithful children than we are but still our brethren and NOT our servants as some preach, at least no more than a big brother is to his little brother.

In the book of Revelation the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last is equated with Christ but Christ is separate from even him in that he is there always before his father still crucified for our sakes, of course since Time is not the same there he may indeed be the same being or he may be separate from the Alpha and the Omega whom may be the first into creation and out of it while the Word is always and was there before creation as well as after it and when he spoke of Abraham he said "Before Abraham was I am", not I was but I am.

When Moshe (Moses) asked the burning bush whom he was he replied "I AM" or in many versions "I AM that I AM".

We can only come to the father THROUGH Yeshua, if we see the father in Yeshua we see the father though the Father is also separate and while he was not seen by the apostles at the transfiguration on the mount he was present within a shining cloud and said "BEHOLD MY SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED".

The entire argument about the divinity of Christ resolves around a dispute over his actual nature, is he created or is he NOT created.

Well the word was BEFORE creation with God and also WAS/IS God, creation was made THROUGH the word and creation can only come back to it's creator THROUGH the word, the Word is Jesus whom is GOD whom became man and suffered for us.

The father is in him in a way we can not understand and only HE alone has ever seen the Father directly.

It is enough to accept that we see them as three the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit and as ONE in the unity of the Holy Trinity but God's nature is infinitely beyond anything we can comprehend, there are seven spirits that issue from the throne of God as well and countless angels more powerful than the wild imaginings of the pagan religions and there power comes from God as well.

It is enough for me to say I can not define God except that I believe he is real, he is the trinity, he cares about each and every one of us and he has called us home, I want to follow the shepherds voice but am like a sheep trapped in a ravine, I believe in him and hope that he will come soon and he said he will but I am also aware that there are wolves prowling, sometimes a lost sheep think's that it is a lion and sometimes that is enough to give a wolf pause but in the end only the good shepherd can lead us, if we really must know and only if he decides it is good for us too know then we may ask him.

To know God is a wonderful thing but it is also a terrible burden, those whom get too close reject this world and often starve themselves to death in an act of mortifying the flesh as they seek to get closer to the lord and to go home, early Christians sang in joy as they were marched into the Amphitheatres to be fed to wild animal's, not all many broke under the horror of certain death but those with enough faith saw it as a doorway for they were dying for there Lord and this had many early Christians wrongly regarded as a death cult by there Roman Persecutors.

They were closer to the truth than we are, had heard it from people whom had heard it from the apostles or indeed from the apostles themselves and the many letters that were written down were often done so to hide and to preserve the knowledge in the face of there terrible persecution.

They had the faith we have lost.

Is it not enough to accept that Christ died for us, that he is God made man.

Why are those persecutors still trying to murder the soul of Christianity even today, are they always going to be here until the Lord return's.

They will and it is evil Spiritual powers which we are at war with whether we know it or not that move within the hearts and minds creating doubt, controlling our leaders in politics and creating strife among mankind as they separate the sheep from the flock so that as wolves they may prey upon them, like rustlers lead them into false religions like Islam and destroy them.

But we have a Shepherd, a King, a God whom is stronger than they, whom has defeated even death itself, something no creature could do but the creator can.

originally posted by: LetTheColdCome

originally posted by: Akragon
Im reluctant to involve myself in these debate anymore... that part of my life is behind me though im compelled to add my two cents... its still hard to resist lol

All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and earth.... Mat 28

IF said power was given to him, there IS clearly a greater power then himself...

He also establishes his submission to the Father saying specifically that the Father is greater then himself, and further more he can do nothing OF himself but it is the Father that does the work

Also as previously stated above.... there is NO trinity in the bible...

1 John 5:7 is the only passage that actually has the trinitarian formula... and it doesn't appear in any of the earliest greek texts that exist.

said trinity has one to believe all three parts of the "godhead" are equal... though as i've already said, Jesus maintains he is NOT equal to the Father...

Even Paul in his opening greetings in his books seems to remove the "holy spirit" from them so Paul knows nothing about the holy spirit being equal to God or Jesus

And Revelation, the last book added to the bible... happen to come along after they established the trinity as standard procedure in Christian beliefs... In my opinion it was added to give weight to the idea that Jesus was God because it states it very clearly

Thus... the trinity is a lie...

Jesus is not, and never considered himself God

Paul, the author of Philippians 2:6, claims the direct antithetical position to what you claim in your post.

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

which directly contradicts what Jesus actually said... red letter

Good ol Paul... wrong answer bud