Is Christ God.

originally posted by: ColeYounger
Yes, Jesus Christ is God.
Begotten, not created

John 10: 30 ”The Father and I are one."

In purpose.

originally posted by: Smigg
When you say the church are you referring to the Catholic church ?

No, I am referring to the Christian church in general, which was still a comparatively united body in those days. The Catholic community does NOT have a monopoly on the word "church".
The official teaching of the Chrsitian denominations in general is still bound by the decisions of the early church in its understanding of the Incarnation and its implications.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Smigg
When you say the church are you referring to the Catholic church ?

No, I am referring to the Christian church in general, which was still a comparatively united body in those days. The Catholic community does NOT have a monopoly on the word "church".
The official teaching of the Chrsitian denominations in general is still bound by the decisions of the early church in its understanding of the Incarnation and its implications.

Nope not all Christian churches are united in their beliefs and teach an "Official" doctrine, not even close..... the Catholic church being the worst offender and the only church in those days.
Hmmmm.

a reply to: Smigg
No, there is another way of interpreting the situation, which has been in use since the earliest centuries of the church.
I refer to the interpretation that the Son is distinct from the Father, and that this distinction exists within] the Godhead. I have taken your examples and applied them to this interpretation. That is my "narrative", and the narrative of all the teachers of the church since the time of Athanasius. You are the one who is going off on his own private track.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
No, there is another way of interpreting the situation, which has been in use since the earliest centuries of the church.

The Catholic church you mean ?

originally posted by: Smigg

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
No, there is another way of interpreting the situation, which has been in use since the earliest centuries of the church.

The Catholic church you mean ?

I've answered this question once, and you've already noticed and responded to my answer. So why are you asking it again? I refer you to my original reply.

a reply to: Smigg
I suggest that you go away and learn something about church history. Then you woukd be able to understand the difference between the church and catholicism. I can't bridge that gap of ignorance in the space of a forum post.

Just as an example; the Catholic church, as you would understand the term, has NEVER been the "only church". That idea is juts the product of their own propaganda. The Vatican hierarchy system did not even exist in those days. "Catholicism" is a late development, a local product which has tried to orgaanise the rest of the church around itself and has not suvcceeded. Do try to fill in the gaps in your knowledge before you argue about these things.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Smigg

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
No, there is another way of interpreting the situation, which has been in use since the earliest centuries of the church.

The Catholic church you mean ?

I've answered this question once, and you've already noticed and responded to my answer. So why are you asking it again? I refer you to my original reply.

Because your tricky and intentionally unclear in your answers, don't you realise your doing it ?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
I suggest that you go away and learn something about church history. Then you woukd be able to understand the difference between the church and catholicism. I can't bridge that gap of ignorance in the space of a forum post.

The Catholic Church was founded in AD 30 ? can you list anymore before that, another tricky answer.

a reply to: Smigg
NO. The Christian church in general was founded in A.D. 30.

I take it that you understand "Catholic church" as meaning that organisation centred upon the Pope?
Then the best way of answering your question is to say that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID NOT EXIST IN A.D. 30.
The catholic church, in that sense, developed in the middle ages in the western portion of Europe, and even then was never more than one local segment of the church in general.

That's why I am telling you to go and learn about church history. You need to educate yourself into understanding the difference. The difficulties in your understanding don't come from me being "tricky"; they come from your ignorance, and your failure to appreciate the full value of words.

I'm always fascinated by those that quote the bible as a history book when it clearly reads as a narrative. Most bible scholars agree on this. Isn't it interesting how Jesus chose to deliver his message in a language that would soon be lost (aramaic) and simple things like the word "love" having over a dozen shades of meanings vs English. The bible is truly amazing, but I think if people used it as a tool instead of worshipping it as an idol we would be better off. No one can prove their opinion is correct over someone else's, but that's exactly what we do. Lean on our own understanding.

I always explain the tribity this way think of god as the molecule h2o.

He can be water=Elohim.

He can be ice=Emanuel.

He can be steam=the spirit.

Unlike h2o he can also be in multiple forms at one time as he exists outside of time.

Is ice h2o is an easy question to answer, and so is is Jesus God.

So during Jesus's babtism we could say when the ice was babtised the steam descended to earth as a dove and the water spoke from heaven that this is my son in whom I am pleased. It was all God in all 3 forms at once interacting with himself.


Ice is not water nor is steam, but they are all h2o.

Jesus is not Elohim nor is he the spirit but he is God, And genesis 1 makes it clear that all 3 were active during creation as is made clear even later in the new testament when it is made clear that Jesus is the word and in the begining the word was God and was with God.

So genesis 1 gives us the image of the spirit hovering over the waters while the father Elohim directed creation via Jesus the aka the word.

Just as at the babtism of christ we have all 3 forms working as one.

So in the begining was h2o and the ice was h2o and the ice was with h2o, becomes a perfectly functional statement using our h2o analogy for God.

In fact I have yet to find any instance where this H2o analogy does not fit the trinity as expressed in the bible.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: TzarChasm

You make a fundamental error in your assumption, the same as the Muhammadans whom deny that even the crucifixion took place and include yet another garbled account based on blasphemous infancy Gospel of Thomas
- (which has nothing to do with St Thomas the Apostle and included a Garbled account of an even earlier story from Coptic Egypt, in that one he was a very small child at the bank's of the Nile and made two DOVES from the clay of the Nile breathing life into them and by the time it got to the heretical and GNOSTIC Infancy Gospel which was written at it's earliest late second century it had turned into a flock of sparrows by a completely different river in a Palestine and he killed two bully's one in a perversion of the story of the Fig Tree he caused to wither in the REAL gospels - and NO to those that believe that Gnostic text Jesus NEVER killed those Children, Pretty sure he would have become a pariah and been hated and feared if he had and seen as a devil child perhaps even murdered by the Rabbi's of the time - or they would have tried to - so it also makes no sense and was written by Gnostics whom were known liars) - Jesus said God is a Spirit, he is the Word of God Made FLESH so he is SPIRIT MADE FLESH get it, no let me explain.

DIVINE as in GOD's Spirit made Flesh can not REALLY die except as FLESH, his mortal form was KILLED, no REALLY KILLED on that cross but he only LET IT DIE when it had been ACOMPLISHED, before that the scourging alone would have killed you and me never mind the blood loss from that scourging.

There are those that deny the Turin Shroud which shows a man with Jewish orthodox wrapping on his arm and forehead as well as the injury's and the crown of thorns and the NAIL HOLES it he UPPER HAND between the lower bones of the wrist were it would hold the weight and not tear the flesh perfectly.

When he ASCENDED after appearing rather more spiritual than physical and able to simply disappear from sight or appear different so that even his closest apostles did not immediately recognise him until he revealed himself he ascended with cloud's, now have you ever seen a spirit that looks like mist because I most definitely have, He ascended and turned back into spirit as he entered back into the HIGHEST spiritual realm.

Also you make the common mistake of saying it can not be done but GOD can do ANYTHING even DIE and take back up his life.

Without a divine body to measure and confirm the behavior of metabiology and the physics correlated with it, the argument is moot.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
NO. The Christian church in general was founded in A.D. 30.

I take it that you understand "Catholic church" as meaning that organisation centred upon the Pope?
Then the best way of answering your question is to say that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID NOT EXIST IN A.D. 30.
The catholic church, in that sense, developed in the middle ages in the western portion of Europe, and even then was never more than one local segment of the church in general.

That's why I am telling you to go and learn about church history. You need to educate yourself into understanding the difference. The difficulties in your understanding don't come from me being "tricky"; they come from your ignorance, and your failure to appreciate the full value of words.

But you keep me guessing, I know the roman catholic church was founded in 30 AD and the catholic church we know today much later but you haven't been clear on the churches you claim preach the same doctrine so I con only assume you mean the main one the catholic church.
Your trickiness has brought this on.

a reply to: DISRAELI

If I may add to that the first Christians except a few Gentiles were Jewish whom accepted him as whom he is the messiah (mashiach) (Muhammad tried to claim at one point that HE was the Messiah over five century's after our Lord had already come but was rejected by the Jewish elders of a tribe and so He ordered them wiped out except for the young girls who he gave to his men).

Though it may be a bone of contention for some there is a video of what is probably a very early fist century Church that is now in the middle of a car park on the temple mount, the congregation would likely all have been Jewish.


The escape tunnel a common feature of a persecuted minority would have been to escape the persecution that the Sanhedrin were pouring upon those that Believed in Yeshua and that he was indeed the Messiah.

The oldest OFFICIALLY recognized or claimed church BY ISRAELI AUTHORITY's is from much later about the third or fourth century though this unrecognized site in Jerusalem as shown in the Video which is obviously a church and despite the Greek Orthodox holding ownership is claimed by the Israeli authority's to - probably - relate to king David despite it's age being obviously too young and the artefacts being Christian (Followers of the Way) in nature, as outlined in the video the orthodox community tend to throw rubbish into the excavation when they walk past which they would NOT do if it was a site related to David.

People tend to Gloss over the persecution of Christians that does happen in Israel.

a reply to: TzarChasm

ONLY in your mind - and - the minds of those with an anti religious or more pointedly Anti Christian mindset though to favour there argument the Muslims would likely go along with you, notice the vein of this thread is very much about the Divinity of Christ and an attempt to argue it away.

But Doubters are not damned because they doubt so long as they don't make there doubt there truth, remember St Thomas.

Creator is Painting aka creating in Jupiter. aka Zeus.

Jeshua said was all sons and daughters of God. mistranslated texts.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Wow, 5 youtube videos. I'm convinced!!

a reply to: infiniteMeow

Be careful whom you liken God too, the Alter of Pergamon is now in Germany and many believe it's evil occult power since the Bible called it the Throne of Satan has caused evil in European history since it was moved there.

Though you know Jesus once gave a blind man sight and he saw better than you or me seeing people As Tree's Walking so Jesus touched his eye's again and he could then only see skin deep and was able to see as you and I do with our limited view of the world.

Zeus according to the Greek mythos created men from tree's.

Though it could just be two references to the tree like like structure of the human body's tendons, muscles and veins since that is pretty much what the man whom had been given sight could see at first.

a reply to: olaru12

There always a guy with bells on his cap.