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GUNS just saved another life

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posted on Oct, 14 2021 @ 10:53 PM
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originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: chr0naut

Sounds like a person problem and not a gun problem.

I wonder what the bullet:death ratio is......


Yes it might be a personal problem with firearms.

After all, I have been shot before (I was unarmed, non combative, in a public place, and not doing anything unusual or criminal. I was also a child at the time). Additionally my father in law committed suicide with a firearm.

But I have done military service, where I trained and drilled with firearms, and I have had need of a firearm occasionally for animal control (I live in a rural area), so I don't think it is the inanimate guns that I oppose so strongly. It is a gun in the hand of the general public, criminal or otherwise, that is the problem.



posted on Oct, 14 2021 @ 11:51 PM
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And yet

The gun in the hands of the general public is a RIGHT

And it’s not going to be taken away during the next few generations

Upsetting for the weak I know, but who cares if they’re upset?



posted on Oct, 15 2021 @ 12:35 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut

So it is a people problem



posted on Oct, 15 2021 @ 01:38 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut

I can certainly see where those sorts of things would color your opinions.

Sorry to hear about your dad, and getting shot. Never been shot, though I have been stabbed on three occasions.

We agree that there are people who should not under any circumstance have access to firearms...or any other tool that can be misused.

But all too often, that opinion takes the form of "No one should have them!!". That's where most begin to part ways.
edit on 10/15/2021 by seagull because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 15 2021 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut

Go back and objectively read what I copied, and maybe even go to the actual link and read more. (hint: start with number one and really think hard about it, then apply it to your comment and see if you can figure it out)

Your take-away and hypothetical are laughable, and no intelligent human being would take your comment seriously. Come on, man--are you trying to actually have an honest, intelligent debate, or are you just full of paralogisms that you think make you seem thoughtful and smart?

Those are serious questions, because I sincerely have a hard time seeing if you're purposefully trolling, truly believe what you are saying is intelligent, or are just oblivious to the realities that prove you wrong (even when it's handed to you).

Also, stop repeating the lie that or making the implication that firearms do more harm than good...the proof has been around for a very long time and discussed on here many times that show that claim to be nothing more than a purposeful lie.

EDIT: I appreciate your acknowledgment in another comment that your aversion to the general public having access to firearms could be based on personal experiences, and I'm sorry to hear about them, but using those emotional instances to set aside the reality of statistics and argue points that are easily proven false (and you do it repeatedly on this topic) is not acceptable in a true debate. I can see why you might think what you argue makes sense, but when there is so much evidence that contradicts your claim, when will you begin to admit that your points and implications are generally just subjective concerns and not reflective of statistical reality?
edit on 15-10-2021 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 15 2021 @ 11:33 AM
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originally posted by: Kreeate
a reply to: JBurns

The efficacy of guns are mostly circumstantial in my opinion.

A gun in the right hand at the right time = Good result mostly
A gun in the right hand at the wrong time = Most likely a disaster
A gun in the wrong hand at the right time = Disaster
A gun in the wrong hand at the wrong time = Ultimate disaster


These are valid categories, but the statistical reality is that millions of the first incident happen annually in the US, dramatically outweighing all three of the others combined.



posted on Oct, 15 2021 @ 01:12 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: puzzled2
a reply to: chr0naut

Do you have any evidence of the deaths you're spouting or is the hundreds of suicides by gunfire every day just a figment of your imagination?


Firearm deaths - USAFACTS


Have you looked deeper than the stats?
Have you controlled for the number of large cities, poverty and population density to measure the number of deaths due to crime in the USA vs other countries where guns are banned?
You might be surprised what you find.

For example, violent crime is worse in the UK than in the US.
The UK's murder rate is 4-5 times higher, but then there are 6 times the number of large metropolitan areas in the US.
Weighted for societal factors I very much doubt you'd see much difference in the murder rates between the US and UK - it's just a different weapon used for murder.


edit on 15/10/2021 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 03:03 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: puzzled2
a reply to: chr0naut

Do you have any evidence of the deaths you're spouting or is the hundreds of suicides by gunfire every day just a figment of your imagination?


Firearm deaths - USAFACTS


Have you looked deeper than the stats?
Have you controlled for the number of large cities, poverty and population density to measure the number of deaths due to crime in the USA vs other countries where guns are banned?
You might be surprised what you find.

For example, violent crime is worse in the UK than in the US.
The UK's murder rate is 4-5 times higher, but then there are 6 times the number of large metropolitan areas in the US.
Weighted for societal factors I very much doubt you'd see much difference in the murder rates between the US and UK - it's just a different weapon used for murder.



^ I did of course mean the US murder rate is 4-5 times higher.



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 01:35 PM
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originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: chr0naut

So it is a people problem


No, it isn't a people problem.

It isn't an inanimate object problem.

It is more of a 'some people with a gun' problem.



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 01:50 PM
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originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: chr0naut

I can certainly see where those sorts of things would color your opinions.

Sorry to hear about your dad, and getting shot. Never been shot, though I have been stabbed on three occasions.

We agree that there are people who should not under any circumstance have access to firearms...or any other tool that can be misused.

But all too often, that opinion takes the form of "No one should have them!!". That's where most begin to part ways.


I believe there are people who should be allowed access, and even open carry, with firearms. But they all have to have respect the weapon.

Too many seem to take them too lightly, like it's some sort of TV story where you shoot people but they are back in the next show or next season, unharmed.

There are just people who should not have access to firearms, because of the risk they pose to themselves and others.

And many people who do have firearms, do not have a strong enough reason to warrant having them. They believe they do, but accidents and suicides happen, so the gun that they hold, can also harm them. In far too many cases.

There is an overlap between people who should not have firearms, and people who believe they have a valid reason to have a firearm. At some point, you have to draw the line, and some people will protest this, because they cannot see themselves in that light.

Like a car is registered and a driver is licensed, all firearms should be registered and all owners licensed. For someone to not have both of those, and yet still be carrying a firearm, should be an offense against public safety, that, at the very least, gets the weapon/s confiscated and disqualifies them from future ownership.



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 02:27 PM
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originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: chr0naut

Go back and objectively read what I copied, and maybe even go to the actual link and read more. (hint: start with number one and really think hard about it, then apply it to your comment and see if you can figure it out)

Your take-away and hypothetical are laughable, and no intelligent human being would take your comment seriously. Come on, man--are you trying to actually have an honest, intelligent debate, or are you just full of paralogisms that you think make you seem thoughtful and smart?

Those are serious questions, because I sincerely have a hard time seeing if you're purposefully trolling, truly believe what you are saying is intelligent, or are just oblivious to the realities that prove you wrong (even when it's handed to you).

Also, stop repeating the lie that or making the implication that firearms do more harm than good...the proof has been around for a very long time and discussed on here many times that show that claim to be nothing more than a purposeful lie.

EDIT: I appreciate your acknowledgment in another comment that your aversion to the general public having access to firearms could be based on personal experiences, and I'm sorry to hear about them, but using those emotional instances to set aside the reality of statistics and argue points that are easily proven false (and you do it repeatedly on this topic) is not acceptable in a true debate. I can see why you might think what you argue makes sense, but when there is so much evidence that contradicts your claim, when will you begin to admit that your points and implications are generally just subjective concerns and not reflective of statistical reality?


There are people on ATS who argue that COVID-19 doesn't exist. Despite the death toll across the planet, which they also have to deny. It does not make their argument valid.

The USA has a significant number of gun crime deaths. It also has a significant number of suicides by gun. Those are real, countable numbers. The number of times guns are used protectively is anyone's guess. and it is just that, a guess.

Even thinking rationally about it, if guns are defensive against serious crimes, and not every person carries a gun, then only a fraction of those crimes are defused by a firearm. There's no way for the defensive uses of guns to be as high as you claim, because you'd have to have more defenses against serious crimes than there are crimes.



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 02:58 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: puzzled2
a reply to: chr0naut

Do you have any evidence of the deaths you're spouting or is the hundreds of suicides by gunfire every day just a figment of your imagination?


Firearm deaths - USAFACTS


Have you looked deeper than the stats?
Have you controlled for the number of large cities, poverty and population density to measure the number of deaths due to crime in the USA vs other countries where guns are banned?
You might be surprised what you find.

For example, violent crime is worse in the UK than in the US.
The UK's murder rate is 4-5 times higher, but then there are 6 times the number of large metropolitan areas in the US.
Weighted for societal factors I very much doubt you'd see much difference in the murder rates between the US and UK - it's just a different weapon used for murder.


You'll never deal with a problem by pointing elsewhere at a different problem. It's a poor excuse.



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 03:46 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: chr0naut

So it is a people problem


No, it isn't a people problem.

It isn't an inanimate object problem.

It is more of a 'some people with a gun' problem.


You've admitted people are the problem, now its just some people?

And you think because if some people the entire population shouldn't have firearms?



posted on Oct, 16 2021 @ 07:16 PM
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originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: chr0naut

So it is a people problem


No, it isn't a people problem.

It isn't an inanimate object problem.

It is more of a 'some people with a gun' problem.


You've admitted people are the problem, now its just some people?


Did I? I think that was your suggestion. I think I have been quite specific, despite what you want to believe about me.


And you think because if some people the entire population shouldn't have firearms?


Those 'some people' happen to be the majority of unregulated gun owners. Not because they have an individual history of misuse, but because they have one or more factors that could lead to misuse, and no-one can tell until irreparable damage is done, which will be the bad ones.

I think some people clearly are highly unlikely to misuse firearms and they should be allowed to own and carry firearms - if they have valid enough reasons.

Arming almost everyone, without limit or regulation, however, is just not wise.

edit on 16/10/2021 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2021 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: puzzled2
a reply to: chr0naut

Do you have any evidence of the deaths you're spouting or is the hundreds of suicides by gunfire every day just a figment of your imagination?


Firearm deaths - USAFACTS


Have you looked deeper than the stats?
Have you controlled for the number of large cities, poverty and population density to measure the number of deaths due to crime in the USA vs other countries where guns are banned?
You might be surprised what you find.

For example, violent crime is worse in the UK than in the US.
The UK's murder rate is 4-5 times higher, but then there are 6 times the number of large metropolitan areas in the US.
Weighted for societal factors I very much doubt you'd see much difference in the murder rates between the US and UK - it's just a different weapon used for murder.


You'll never deal with a problem by pointing elsewhere at a different problem. It's a poor excuse.



You'll never understand an issue if you just look at the headlines.



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