It's ILLOGICAL to think God didn't Create the Universe

originally posted by: cooperton
Yeah there is no such thing as an atheist biologist. They're atheist bio-illogists. Atheist cosmologist? Nope, they're atheist cosmo-illogists. Their study of bio-illogical organisms and cosmo-illogical phenomenon is totally fruitless, because they will soon find that all of these natural organisms and planetary motions all act according to logical perpetuation.

Any speculation that considers an illogical source of creation, is extremely illogical.

Good points!

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: QFlux

You do realize that is referring to people not to the literal universe and physical earth? The terms "new heaven" and "new earth" appear several times in the Bible and in each instance it refers to people. The "heavens" being the ruling body, and the "earth" the subjects of the government ruling.

Let me give you an example. 2 Peter chapter 3, the very chapter you quoted, look a little before verse 10 that you quoted and we see a heavens and earth before the world was destroyed in Noah's day:

"For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water."-2 Peter 3:5, 6.

All those verses are trying to do is remind people that God had the power to cause destruction upon the earth once, and that he's going to do it again.

What do you think when Peter said that the world of Noah's day suffered destruction? Does the heaven and earth still exist? Isn't it obvious he is referring to the world of wicked people at that time? Now notice the next verse:

"But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people". verse 7.

The verse above, once again, makes clear that the earth has been reserved for judgement by fire when the day of judgement comes again. Not sure how when you read the whole chapter that you aren't able to make the distinction between discussing the second coming of Jesus and the judgement that comes afterwards with the previous destruction.

Agreed and that was what I pointed out. Did you read my post? I don't want to be confrontational at all. This info I was giving was to help you. For example, if you missed it I will share this prophecy with you again, a lot of people don't even know it's in the Bible:

"The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it." - Psalm 37:29.

We know the earth will endure forever because prophecy tells us it will in Psalm 104:5 and Ecc 4:1.

We can also see very plainly when the Bible says there are a "new heaven" and "new earth" that will replace the old heaven and earth it is referring to wicked humankind. For example in 2 Peter it says that in Noah's day the old heavens and earth of that time were destroyed by water.

The worldwide flood did not destroy the literal earth, and it didn't even affect the universe outside the earth's atmosphere. So we know that the heaven and earth that were destroyed in Noah's day were not literal. In fact the same scripture tell us that it was wicked human society that was destroyed. And it tells us that, like you pointed out the wicked world of humankind in our day will be destroe3yd, not by water this time, but by fire.

So the prophecies for a new heaven and earth cannot be referring to the literal heaven and earth. Bible prophecy already shows us these will endure forever. The new heavens is a new governmental arrangement of things, God's kingdom in Jesus' hands that he prayed to come to earth and make its will done upon the earth as it is in heaven. The new earth will be a new world of righteous humans.

You did quote a scripture that said that sooner will the heaven and earth pass away, or they would pass away but God's word would not. We know by prophecy that the literal universe will always exist. That is God's will. So this is just an assurance that God's word will be fulfilled.

a reply to: QFlux

Sorry, but we're going to have to disagree on this once again. Read the verse again...

2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It says that the "elements" shall melt. Those are earthly elements, not humans.

Secondly, there is no way that "righteous humans" will be living on the new earth, as Revelation tells us that death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. There will be no more births or deaths after this happens. We will all be living in a heavenly and spiritual body within a different atmosphere, because the earth as we know it will no longer serve our purpose. Any mention of a permanent earth can only be due to the replacement of earth with the new combined heaven/earth where God and transformed humans will reside together, just like the Bible tells us. It also tells us that the New Jerusalem will have no need for the sun or the moon because Jesus will be the light therein. We also know that it will not have a sea. The earth is technically replaced when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

I love your threads my friend...

I believe you are doing a service to the Lord and hopefully saving some people...

a reply to: Deetermined

The elements refer to wicked humankind. You keep ignoring many prophecies in the Bible.

Now the scripture says:

"The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it."-Psalm 37:29.

You say:

"There is no way that "righteous humans" will be living on the new earth."

Your argument isn't really with me. It is with Jehovah God and his word. I respect your right to disagree with what the Bible promises. I on the other hand have no doubt that God cannot lie and his word will be fulfilled.

a reply to: QFlux

There is nothing to suggest that "elements" means wicked people, plus the verse itself backs up the statement that it's the earth. Both words together in that verse make it clear, with back up, that the earth is what's being talked about there.

Also, while the Psalm 37:29 verse says the "righteous" will possess the earth, it doesn't say that the righteous are still living in a human form, nor does it say that it's the old earth vs. the new earth. The Bible tells us that the old heavens and earth will be replaced with a new heaven and earth. By that time, humans will all be transformed into their heavenly bodies and will not be living as "humans" any more. No need to. There will be no more sickness, death, hunger, or suffering because we won't be living in human bodies any longer.

You Jehovah Witnesses need to spend more time studying your Bible instead of the rewritten word in the form of the New World Translation.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: QFlux

There is nothing to suggest that "elements" means wicked people, plus the verse itself backs up the statement that it's the earth. Both words together in that verse make it clear, with back up, that the earth is what's being talked about there.

There is much evidence. We are referring to 2 Peter 3. Now if you read the context you will see this is talking about the end of wicked humankind. It talks about the time God destroyed the "heavens" and "earth" in Noah's day by water. It then tells us that those heavens and earth that were, standing out of water that were destroyed was the wicked generation of that time.

It then says that the "heavens" and "earth" that now exist will be done away with by fire and tells us very plainly that this means the "ungodly people."

This topic again.....


It is illogical to imagine Nothingness creating finite time. But at the same time science state that finite time had a beginning. Its just that science also imply that there existed finite time before the finite beginning.

No wonder we have these topics all the time. People just dont know the differance between what finite is and what the infinite is.

We have people who think finite is infinite.... Grasp that.

a reply to: QFlux

Sorry, there is no evidence that you speak of. The scriptures are clear...

2 Peter 3:10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: QFlux

Sorry, there is no evidence that you speak of. The scriptures are clear...

2 Peter 3:10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Which part of what I shared with you do you disagree with. You said there is no evidence at all.

Let us look at the evidence from the Bible of what the "new heaven" and "new earth" are.

Firstly the Bible says that the earth will never be done away with:

"He has established the earth on its foundations; It will not be moved from its place forever and ever."-Psalm 104:5.

"A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever."-Ecclesiastes 1:4.

What does Bible say then about our earth? It says "the earth remains forever." It says that "it will not be moved from its place forever and ever."

What hope does the Bible give righteous humans? Psalm 37:29 states: "The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it."

This means that righteous humans will live forever on earth. If you tie this in with the other scriptures that say the earth will remain forever we know that our earth will always exist and that righteous humans will have everlasting life on earth.

Proverbs says:

"So follow the way of good people And stay on the paths of the righteous, 21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it. 22 As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it."-Proverbs 2:22, 23.

So this says that wicked humankind will be done away with, "they will be cut off from the earth." This sounds a lot like what Peter was saying when he said wicked humankind will be destroyed.

There are many many other prophecies showing us that the earth will become a paradise and that righteous humans will live forever on it.


Now the first mention of a "new heaven" and "new earth" are in Isaiah. And it was talking about the repatriation of the Jews back to Jerusalem after their exile of 70 years:

"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart."-Isaiah 65:17.

If you are in doubt that this is referring to the Jewish nation notice what verse 9 says:

"I will bring out of Jacob an offspring And out of Judah the one to inherit my mountains; My chosen ones will take possession of it, And my servants will reside there."

When the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 607 B.C.E. and taken into captivity to Babylon the old heaven, or the line of kings, was done away with, and the old earth, the people who inhabited Israel were removed. But God promised they would return to the promised land. And that they did. Notice:

"It was then that Ze·rubʹba·bel the son of She·alʹti·el and Jeshʹu·a the son of Je·hozʹa·dak started to rebuild the house of God, which was in Jerusalem; and the prophets of God were with them and supported them."-Ezra 5:2.

Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come to the earth and have its will be done to the earth as it is in the heaven.

Now what is God's will for the earth? Did he create it simply to be destroyed? No. The Bible tells us that he created it to be inhabited:

"For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."-Isaiah 45:18.

Now coming back to 2 Peter 3. I have shown you very plainly a number of times that Peter when referring to the "heavens" and "earth" that were destroyed in Noah's day was referring to wicked human society. And that the current "heavens" and "earth" that are to be destroyed is wicked humankind.

a reply to: QFlux

Obviously, you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll leave someone else's explanation for you...

Is Isaiah 65:17-25 supposed to depict the Kingdom, as v.17 suggests otherwise when God states He will "create new heavens and a new earth"? The passage also goes on to talk about infants, bearing children and death. How can this take place in the Kingdom if we have glorified bodies?

The reference in Isaiah 65:17 to the new heavens is not the same "new heavens and earth" of Revelation 21. Isaiah is referring to the repaired world that will host the 1,000-year Kingdom on earth. We know this because of multiple details:

First, we know that the Old Testament saints never knew of events beyond the Kingdom. The Lord never revealed anything more than the coming Kingdom to Israel, so all references in the Old Testament to a future world or paradise are references to the Messianic Kingdom only.

Secondly, the context of Isaiah 65 includes details (as you mentioned) like death which are specifically excluded from the new heavens and earth that follows the Kingdom. For example:

Rev. 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Rev. 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev. 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

While Isaiah 65 mentions the presence of death in the Kingdom, which occurs as a result of unbelief and sin present in that world (though not for the resurrected saints), John says there is no death at all in the eternal order that follows the Kingdom.

Finally, the descriptions of the physical world found in Isaiah 65-66 do not match those of Revelation 21-22. For example, Isaiah 66:19 says there will be "coastlands" in that world, while John says in Revelation 21:1 that there will no longer be a sea in the new heavens and earth.

Therefore, we must conclude that though the phrasing between Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 are similar, similarity does not mean they are speaking of the same place. In Isaiah the term "new heavens and new earth" refers to the changes and improvements coming in the 1,000 Kingdom on this earth, while the term "new heavens and a new earth" in Revelation 21 refers to the future Universe coming to replace the Kingdom.

originally posted by: GoShredAK
I love your threads my friend...

I believe you are doing a service to the Lord and hopefully saving some people...

Thank you for your kind words and I hope so too

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: QFlux

Obviously, you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll leave someone else's explanation for you...

Is Isaiah 65:17-25 supposed to depict the Kingdom, as v.17 suggests otherwise when God states He will "create new heavens and a new earth"? The passage also goes on to talk about infants, bearing children and death. How can this take place in the Kingdom if we have glorified bodies?

The reference in Isaiah 65:17 to the new heavens is not the same "new heavens and earth" of Revelation 21. Isaiah is referring to the repaired world that will host the 1,000-year Kingdom on earth. We know this because of multiple details:

First, we know that the Old Testament saints never knew of events beyond the Kingdom. The Lord never revealed anything more than the coming Kingdom to Israel, so all references in the Old Testament to a future world or paradise are references to the Messianic Kingdom only.

Secondly, the context of Isaiah 65 includes details (as you mentioned) like death which are specifically excluded from the new heavens and earth that follows the Kingdom. For example:

Rev. 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Rev. 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev. 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

While Isaiah 65 mentions the presence of death in the Kingdom, which occurs as a result of unbelief and sin present in that world (though not for the resurrected saints), John says there is no death at all in the eternal order that follows the Kingdom.

Finally, the descriptions of the physical world found in Isaiah 65-66 do not match those of Revelation 21-22. For example, Isaiah 66:19 says there will be "coastlands" in that world, while John says in Revelation 21:1 that there will no longer be a sea in the new heavens and earth.

Therefore, we must conclude that though the phrasing between Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 are similar, similarity does not mean they are speaking of the same place. In Isaiah the term "new heavens and new earth" refers to the changes and improvements coming in the 1,000 Kingdom on this earth, while the term "new heavens and a new earth" in Revelation 21 refers to the future Universe coming to replace the Kingdom.

It has become quite obvious about some apparent things. First and foremost is your brushing aside any and all scripture that accurately teaches truth, which does not agree with what you want to believe.

For example you were clearly shown that the heaven and earth of Noah's day were destroyed. And yet here the earth still is.

You were shown many references promising the earth will remain forever and the righteous will live forever on earth. So what has become apparent. When you do not reason with what God's word clearly and plainly tells you and attack me and act as if I don't know what it is saying when I very clearly and plainly do know, and you very clearly and plainly don't?

But I didn't come here to get into a boxing match with you over who is right and wrong. Scripture is truth and it tells us that one of the signs of the last days would be people that are fierce and not open to any agreement. A teacher of God's word need be mild and have deep respect for others and their points of view.

I will repeat that I respect your point of view. And have demonstrated that I do not just have a cursory or superficial knowledge of these things. I can actually write pages refuting everything you stated quoting many other scriptures. But 1 or 2 is enough. That is why I was brief and concise and to the point. And why even after quoting a scripture I would tell you what that scripture means. Such as when Psalm 37:29 says that the righteous will live forever on earth, I said this means the righteous will live forever on earth. Or when quoting the earth will endure forever I explained in simple terms this means the earth will endure forever. These things are easy to grasp and irrefutable from the standpoint of truth and scripture and it is all in agreement and harmonizes with itself throughout for all scripture is canon and inspired of God and cannot lie.

a reply to: QFlux

I already showed you MORE scriptures that talk about a new heaven and new earth after the old one has been...

burned up with fire
elements melted
dissolved
passed away
replaced

Your one or two verses of the earth remaining forever doesn't cut it. They don't even specify that it was the same earth from the time of it's original creation. If God places a new heaven/earth in the same place that the original earth resided, he still hasn't broken any promises, but you don't seem to understand that.

a reply to: Deetermined

The holy spirit will witness the death of the body for three days. Free will is our choice to exist as the will of our mind or the will of the Holy spirit/Father. The will of the Father is one spirit. That one spirit in every body is one and the same spirit. Corinthians 6:17 ...“But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.”.

" we are not God". Your identification of that "we" is nothing but dust. In overcoming the self identity (egosim) of mind, in becoming one with the whole, our witness will be given a new room in the mansion (more enhanced mind/body in a higher realm). Some will return to this realm as teachers.

Understand that without God we are nothing. That God is everything. We being nothing but an expression of his love. So its not about aligning our mind to anything but existing in the will of the Father. With the grace of the Fathers will, both eyes (spirit and mind) become one. That is alluded in revelation as the 144,000. That mind/soul being enhanced with a greater God conciousness to serve his will.

a reply to: neoholographic

Didn't I already explain this to you?

In any case, it's unwise to reply purely on something like 'logical' or 'illogical' to explain something as profound and important as the creation of the Universe.

I won't go down THAT particular path, I will just repeat what I already explained - it's a translation by me, so it may seem very clunky as english, some words I am not sure how to translate, english flows very differently, so it may seem very odd.

I can reveal that at least ALLEGEDLY this is actually channeled message from Extra-Terrestrial people, and they surely would know better. I am not going to debate whether anything is true or not or 'logical' or not, I will just give the information (again) and leave it at that. Accept it who will, let them understand, who can/will/etc.

This was my explanation of 'how matter was born' (as there was confusion about that), but it sort of describes how the Universe was created - we have to realize not only the matter or just physical plane is 'the Universe', most of it is non-physical, higher planes, vibration frequencies and realms (all of which are, of course, populated, but basically and fundamentally, 'people' and 'creator of people' are the same, because all Existence is the same energy - or more accurately, 'the same spirit' or 'the same intelligence', however you want to word it).

The Creator existed for aeons as just pure light and energy. It sparkled in every portion of space. In fact, the light formed space out of itself.

Unmeasurable time passed.

The pure energy transformed and got different appearance forms.

It was exactly due to the transformation and changes of the pure 'first energy' that the 'natural laws' were first born - laws, that are only different forces of nature acting in perfect harmony with each other.

The basic vibration of the Universe changed to very multifaceted..

..Vibrations were born to different frequencies, or more accurately, the basic vibrations were separated into a series of energy particles that vibrated in different frequencies.

Again, time passed.

Instead of fantastical and bright ('lightful' is probably not a word), pure energy, space started getting more and more forms that belong to physical planes.

Galaxies started being formed, that due to following the motion paths of the cosmic Kundalini (initial/primal energy?), formed into spiral vortex shapes.

The primal energy (there's no proper english word for this, the literal word would be 'beginning energy', but it makes no sense in english) was living and was kept alive exactly due to that active twirling motion.

In fact, the primal energy was a sort of perpetual motion (machine?) that fed itself with its own energies. It's difficult to describe the Creator, because He is always incomprehensible also to me.

However, I will say that the spiral motion of the galaxies was caused by the most primal natural forces that is in effect in them, that I have tried to describe here.

The forming (formation?) of the first galaxies - or galactic nebulas, had started..

..When the transformational (convergent?) creative forces started to approach the material planes - that's when suns were born!

Billions of stars (were?) ignited to shine into the 'foggy' space, and only so that the higher forces could flow towards the slower vibration frequencies - and towards their materialistic form expression/appearance.

Matter was born.

Thank you for this opportunity to share how it all began, so we don't have to be in the endless 'rational' loop of 'what's logical and what's illogical' or exist purely in the mental/rational/intelligent side without dipping into spiritual/energy/vibrational/wisdom side.

a reply to: Deetermined

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
What God speaks is not up for debate nor should it be squabbled over.
What Jesus did in a most brutal way only a God could do.
Our diverse opinions cease when we focus on that.

originally posted by: Randyvine2
a reply to: Deetermined

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
What God speaks is not up for debate nor should it be squabbled over.
What Jesus did in a most brutal way only a God could do.
Our diverse opinions cease when we focus on that.

"An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest."

It's a classic fallacy... the response is for the squabblers to humble themselves and be like servants. Not an easy task for someone who aspires to be King.

Cool Thread....

As I started to read thru your OC... I had already started to construct my response and what passages of scripture I would attach to further this discussion...

Yes "GOD" (The Word Become Flesh John 1) did create the universe (But I don't believe in the Universe in which Scientism tells us we live in.... I.E. "The Heliocentirc Model") BTW.... GOD = YHVH = Yod Hey Vav Hey = Behold The Hand, Behold The Nail = Yahshua/Jesus = The Word Become Flesh Who Dwelt Among Us.... (Salvation thru no other)

The passage of scripture I first wanted to refference was and is Romans 1:18-23 (You attached a very important part of that chapter already with verse 20, and it made me smile.... it's one of the first I always turn too in reagrds to this topic...but it really should be read in whole/context, the parts dealing with creation that is....

The rest of that chapter then goes on to describe basically the outcome of our disbelief and the desires, passions of man... and how we have been given over to corruption/death from sin, but lets focus on creation shall we)

Romans 1:18-23

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things

So we see right off the bat that.... "Unrighteous Men SUPPRESS THE TRUTH"!!! What Truth?!?!

The Truth (Not only that The Word Became Flesh and He Is The Only Way To The Father) but they suppress the truth of "His Creation" which can be "Clearly Seen/Perceived" ever since He created it in the things that "He Made"... Thus people have been deceived to not see or believe in the "Invisible Attributes" of "GOD" (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit) namely His "Eternal Power & Divine Nature" which has led us to not even understand "The Earthly Things" (Nor does much of the world know where they live and or who created it)

Which leads us to further investigate this very topic/thread....

To keep my first response short.... I'd like for us to refocus on what you posted there in Genesis 1...

What it describes he created... The words used and on what days were those things created....

Namely.... when was "The Earth" created in regards as to when "The Sun, Moon and Stars" were created and how is the "Earth, the Waters, Deep and Firmament" etc etc described.... (I.E. What is a "Face")

Anywho... cool topic. Look forward to the discussion to continue.

a reply to: PaPaTaco

lol...

It's not illogical to think God made the universe, but is it illogical to believe he made the Earth flat?