How did matter become aware of itself?

This is why materialism makes no sense. I truly think materialism is human hubris and pride. It's 666( 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons) or man's number. It's humans being so proud, they think that they have the highest intellect in the universe. They call Einstien or Hawking genius for discovering the genius of God.

Where's the evidence that matter can be aware of itself? That statement makes no sense and some Scientist realize this and they say consciousness is an illusion. There's not a shred of evidence that matter can become aware of itself. In fact, what we call the basic building blocks of matter, subatomic particles, isn't matter at all. Subatomic particles are excitations of underlying quantum fields. Matter can't be in superposition or be non local and entangled. Again, it's absurd and most scientist know this but they also know without the lie of materialism, God is standing there. Heisenberg said this:



Now, the first gulp should make you abandon atheism, materialism or any nonsensical ism that supports the absurd notion that matter can magically becaome aware.

Awareness is fundamental and immaterial. It just is.

If you had a hypothetic brain transplant between Bob and Alice, most scientist don't believe Alice will think she's Bob and Bob will think he's Alice. They would have memories and desires that may be different for them but their awareness of "me" will still be there. If awareness is generated by the material brain in some magical way, then Bob should wake up thinking he's Alice and Alice should wake up thinking she's Bob.

Where's awareness located in the material brain. You can lose much of your brain and still function and be aware.

Awareness is fundamental and interacts with what we call the material world and when it interacts with something as complex as the brain, you get self awareness.

We seen evidence of this fundamental awareness in recent Wigner's Friend experiments that confirmed Wigner's Friend on a microscopic scale. It showed when Wigner's Friend carried out a measurement in a lab and measured spin up, Wigner outside the lab can do an interference measurement on the same system and measure interference. As long as Wigner isn't aware of his friend's measurement, he can measure interference. As soon as Wigner's Friend calls Wigner and tells him the outcome of his measurement, he can no longer measure interference in the system.

How does a quantum system's wave function when Wigner has or doesn't have knowledge about it's measured state? This is evidence of fundamental awareness on quantum scales.

Experimental test of local observer-independence

Massimiliano Proietti, Alexander Pickston, Francesco Graffitti, Peter Barrow, Dmytro Kundys, Cyril Branciard, Martin Ringbauer, Alessandro Fedrizzi

The scientific method relies on facts, established through repeated measurements and agreed upon universally, independently of who observed them. In quantum mechanics, the objectivity of observations is not so clear, most dramatically exposed in Eugene Wigner's eponymous thought experiment where two observers can experience seemingly different realities. The question whether these realities can be reconciled in an observer-independent way has long remained inaccessible to empirical investigation, until recent no-go-theorems constructed an extended Wigner's friend scenario with four observers that allows us to put it to the test. In a state-of-the-art 6-photon experiment, we realise this extended Wigner's friend scenario, experimentally violating the associated Bell-type inequality by 5 standard deviations. If one holds fast to the assumptions of locality and free-choice, this result implies that quantum theory should be interpreted in an observer-dependent way.

arxiv.org...

Let me say this again:

In other words, Wigner's Friend makes a choice to measure the state of a quantum system, he becomes entangled with the superposition of the quantum system and in his local frame of reference(the lab) he thinks a measurement has occured but Wigner outside the lab can still measure interference until he makes a choice to become aware of the measurement that his friend in the lab recorded.

Again, how is the quantum system aware if Wigner knows it's state or not? Awareness is fundamental. There's no evidence that anything we call material can be aware of itself. Again, it's absurd to even think about.

Darwinist, how did non life evolve awareness of itself?

Fantastic metaphysical post!

So what do you think OUR consciousness is, then? Are you saying we're NOT aware of ourselves?

We're just observers?

originally posted by: Tempter
Fantastic metaphysical post!

So what do you think OUR consciousness is, then? Are you saying we're NOT aware of ourselves?

We're just observers?

I think much of the problem with the debate has to do with how we define consciousness. I think consciousness and awareness are different things.

I think consciousess is how fast can an organism process information about it's environment and how much information it can process about it's environment.

So a person can buy a new door and can be conscious about the color of the door, what the door is made of, what the glass on the door is made of and the fact they bought the door because the other door was scratched.

A dog may just be conscious it's a door without a hole for him to crawl through like the last one.

Awareness is qualia. Awareness is saying I bought this color door because it matched the new car I bought when I was depressed and I wanted to treate myself. You can't quantify this like you can information about the color of the door.

Awareness is the me experience and can't be quantified because there's no way to know if any of the other 7 billion people in the world are having a me experience also. I could be the only one that exist and everyone else is a simulated being.

Awareness can initiate recall of a specific memory. How is this possible with the material brain? How does the material brain, tell the material brain, which memory it wants the material brain to recall and why?

So there's a difference between consciousness and awareness. I may be conscious that I'm eating spaghetti but I'm aware whether I like it or not and why. I'm aware of the experience I have when eating spaghetti and what taste like spaghetti to me might taste like Lasagna to someone else but there's no way to know this because we're like 7 billion black boxes of experience. How can the material brain be aware of experience and be aware how it feels about an experience?

If you're talking to non corporeal people and they're not video game characters, you should get that checked out.

a reply to: neoholographic

Matter has always been aware of itself says matter.

a reply to: neoholographic

Mate you are trying to figure out the mysteries of the universe with an evolving human brain, the idea of creation changes with ages. We are on the computer age, this is a program.

Plasma age next

And you say material like it exists. It's vibrations ain't it... An illusion, so material is consciousness.

a reply to: neoholographic

Self Awareness is an excellent survival strategy. It makes complete and total sense as something to evolve.

Most Darwinists I know have forfeited any further critical thinking on the topic. It is clearly not possible for the faculty of consciousness to have been generated by random chance. Would you expect it to be possible for the terminator robot to come to be by random chance??? It's absurd to even suggest it, yet that's exactly what evolutionary theory is proposing regarding biological organisms.

Quantum physics is the last nail in the coffin for the theory. There is an abundance of evidence from every field of science that can prove the theory of evolution is incorrect, it is only a matter of whether or not someone is actually willing to listen to and inspect the evidence without bias.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: neoholographic

Self Awareness is an excellent survival strategy. It makes complete and total sense as something to evolve.

What is the mechanism to evolve neural circuits necessary for self awareness and to integrate that with the entirety of the sensory circuits of the nervous system?

a reply to: Puppylove

Links to back that up? I'd like to imagine self awareness evolved as an adaption but I need links.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: neoholographic

Self Awareness is an excellent survival strategy. It makes complete and total sense as something to evolve.

It makes no sense and the earth manage to exist billions of years without it if you accept the fantasy that is a natural interpretation of evolution.

Also, how did it evolve exactly? How does something as abstract as awareness evolve? Awareness just is. Was there a species before us that said "I think I'm aware." Then a species before them that said "Maybe I'm aware." LOL, it makes no sense. How is something material aware of itself and how can you quantify how much or little awareness there is? Who did humans evolve self awareness from? It make no sense at all that matter is aware of itself or non living matter somehow through lightning strikes or magic mushrooms said, hey I'm aware.

a reply to: cooperton

Great points, especially this part:

What is the mechanism to evolve neural circuits necessary for self awareness and to integrate that with the entirety of the sensory circuits of the nervous system?

a reply to: neoholographic

Good input. I've always thought of consciousness as a thread through the universe. That changed over time. I suppose I can't look at animals as being much different than us. But I can't see many animals changing their environment to up the score.

It's like a kobayashi maru deal. Change the circumstances to survive. Yet, at the same time, my pets have learned to successfully comunicate and alter their surroundings. I have little doubt it's a evolutionary trait. Maybe psychedelics. Who knows?

In the end, we can confirm it happens, so it most likely will reoccur, here or somewhere.

ETA: I've always found the concept of music as an indicator.. most animals can't follow a beat, but some birds can. The idea of anticipating something with no physical reward is interesting. Spark of consciousness? Maybe. Also I'm frightened of birds, they control they air. Lol.

There is a deeper philosophical question to the issue, but I'm not feeling this is what we're doing.

a reply to: neoholographic

God: Does the clay say to the potter, "why has thou made me thus?"

Man: The clay formed itself into a vase, then, became the potter.

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: Tempter
Fantastic metaphysical post!

So what do you think OUR consciousness is, then? Are you saying we're NOT aware of ourselves?

We're just observers?

I think much of the problem with the debate has to do with how we define consciousness. I think consciousness and awareness are different things.

I think consciousess is how fast can an organism process information about it's environment and how much information it can process about it's environment.

So a person can buy a new door and can be conscious about the color of the door, what the door is made of, what the glass on the door is made of and the fact they bought the door because the other door was scratched.

A dog may just be conscious it's a door without a hole for him to crawl through like the last one.

Awareness is qualia. Awareness is saying I bought this color door because it matched the new car I bought when I was depressed and I wanted to treate myself. You can't quantify this like you can information about the color of the door.

Awareness is the me experience and can't be quantified because there's no way to know if any of the other 7 billion people in the world are having a me experience also. I could be the only one that exist and everyone else is a simulated being.

Awareness can initiate recall of a specific memory. How is this possible with the material brain? How does the material brain, tell the material brain, which memory it wants the material brain to recall and why?

So there's a difference between consciousness and awareness. I may be conscious that I'm eating spaghetti but I'm aware whether I like it or not and why. I'm aware of the experience I have when eating spaghetti and what taste like spaghetti to me might taste like Lasagna to someone else but there's no way to know this because we're like 7 billion black boxes of experience. How can the material brain be aware of experience and be aware how it feels about an experience?

At a certain age ( or time in life ) we awaken to the fact that we are observers in life. One stage can be the beginning of life ( which we don't understand yet ), the next stage in life of observation is the time of puberty and finally we reach the final stage in life which we call " in the autumn of our life ".

As we all know there are 4 stages in nature, so my question is , what is the 4th stage? Is it when we observe Gods wisdom?
When we pray for wisdom, and shall seek the answers of the wisdom that has been given to us, is that the 4th stage of observation in life?

I have always seen the rise of sentience and consciousness as a manifestation and expression that the universe is self aware, and aware that it exists by observation so sentience/conscious observation becomes a form of self preservation for the universe. Which is why I believe that there is a lot of sentient life throughout the universe

a reply to: neoholographic

You do post very thought out, and somewhat researched threads, however you always end with a conclusive, which means there is a bias to your threads, one you will not deviate from. (run-on sentence, I know)

You mention 666, I assume you mean carbon. All life forms on earth are carbon based, if we were created, it's not man's fault for noticing that similarity.

As far as evidence of matter becoming aware of itself? At one point in time the atoms in my body were matter inside of a star, that star exploded and send the matter that would eventually become me throughout the universe. I don't think anyone argues that stars are self-aware, nor do they argue they are made of matter.

So you, me, and everyone else are evidence of matter becoming aware of itself.

You also mention the hypothetical of an actual brain swap, but were fairly vague. Are you saying bob and alice wouldn't be aware they had been brain swapped, and would only recognize themselves as the current bob and alice?
If so, please cite some sources, because that sounds like something you made up. I'm fairly certain most neuroscientists would agree consciousness and memories are products of your brain, and if your brain goes from one body to another, it doesn't just change to be the brain of that body like the old brain was.

a reply to: neoholographic

I think consciousess is how fast can an organism process information about it's environment and how much information it can process about it's environment.

Well you kinda just defined awareness

Definition of awareness :
the quality or state of being aware :
knowledge and understanding that something is happening or exists

Curious of your 'definition' of consciousness

a reply to: Vector99

First, you said:

As far as evidence of matter becoming aware of itself? At one point in time the atoms in my body were matter inside of a star, that star exploded and send the matter that would eventually become me throughout the universe. I don't think anyone argues that stars are self-aware, nor do they argue they are made of matter.

So you, me, and everyone else are evidence of matter becoming aware of itself.

Think about how this sounds. You're saying because atoms in your body was in stars, it's evidence of matter becoming aware of itself. When did this matter become aware of itself? Was it aware when it became a brain? What evolutionary steps evolved this awareness and made matter aware of itself? Was matter aware of itself when it was subatomic particles? When and how did this awareness come to be?

One thing has nothing to do with the other. It's not a default position that everyone has to accept. It makes no sense.

This is why I talked about the recent Wigner's Friend experiments. It makes more sense to say awareness, which can't be quantified, is fundamental. It interacts with brains and the more complex a brain is the more self awareness is present.

When Wigner's Friend carries out a measurement in a lab, Wigner outside of the lab can still measure interference as if his Friend never carried out a measurement, until Wigner becomes aware if his friend measured spin up or spin down. How is the quantum system aware about Wigner's knowledge of it's state?

The problem here is egocentric humans who act like awareness must emerge from the brain without a shred of evidence, instead of awareness being fundamental and interracting with the brain.

Again, how does the material brain initiate memory recall? How does the material brain tell the material brain which memory it wants the material brain to recall? These aren't gaps, these are things that are impossible to explin through materialism. You have to show how awareness emerged and evolved.

These are not just musings from me. Scientist are asking these questions because awareness emerging from matter makes no sense. Look at some of these recent headlines.

Is the Universe Conscious? Some of the world's most renowned scientists are questioning whether the cosmos has an inner life similar to our own.

www.nbcnews.com...

Can our brains help prove the universe is conscious?

www.space.com...

Does Consciousness Pervade the Universe?

www.scientificamerican.com...

WHY SOME SCIENTISTS BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE IS CONSCIOUS

mindmatters.ai...

Is the universe conscious? It seems impossible until you do the maths

www.newscientist.com...

Is the Universe a conscious mind?

aeon.co...

Again, I think the reason why there's this confusion or hard problem is because consciousness and awareness of consciousness are two different things. One is the product of the brain interracting with it's environment the other is fundamental and quantum and it navigates, operates and is aware of itself and the information processed by the brain.

a reply to: neoholographic

I feel like there's more to this than just projecting our sentience on the universe. You maybe want to tell us what it's thinking, don't you. Enlighten us what the universe is doing with all this consciousness and why it matters to our tiny little slice of the galaxy.

originally posted by: neoholographic
This is why materialism makes no sense. I truly think materialism is human hubris and pride. It's 666( 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons) or man's number. It's humans being so proud, they think that they have the highest intellect in the universe. They call Einstien or Hawking genius for discovering the genius of God.

Where's the evidence that matter can be aware of itself? That statement makes no sense and some Scientist realize this and they say consciousness is an illusion. There's not a shred of evidence that matter can become aware of itself. In fact, what we call the basic building blocks of matter, subatomic particles, isn't matter at all. Subatomic particles are excitations of underlying quantum fields. Matter can't be in superposition or be non local and entangled. Again, it's absurd and most scientist know this but they also know without the lie of materialism, God is standing there. Heisenberg said this:

Now, the first gulp should make you abandon atheism, materialism or any nonsensical ism that supports the absurd notion that matter can magically becaome aware.

Awareness is fundamental and immaterial. It just is.

If you had a hypothetic brain transplant between Bob and Alice, most scientist don't believe Alice will think she's Bob and Bob will think he's Alice. They would have memories and desires that may be different for them but their awareness of "me" will still be there. If awareness is generated by the material brain in some magical way, then Bob should wake up thinking he's Alice and Alice should wake up thinking she's Bob.

Where's awareness located in the material brain. You can lose much of your brain and still function and be aware.

Awareness is fundamental and interacts with what we call the material world and when it interacts with something as complex as the brain, you get self awareness.

We seen evidence of this fundamental awareness in recent Wigner's Friend experiments that confirmed Wigner's Friend on a microscopic scale. It showed when Wigner's Friend carried out a measurement in a lab and measured spin up, Wigner outside the lab can do an interference measurement on the same system and measure interference. As long as Wigner isn't aware of his friend's measurement, he can measure interference. As soon as Wigner's Friend calls Wigner and tells him the outcome of his measurement, he can no longer measure interference in the system.

How does a quantum system's wave function when Wigner has or doesn't have knowledge about it's measured state? This is evidence of fundamental awareness on quantum scales.

Experimental test of local observer-independence

Massimiliano Proietti, Alexander Pickston, Francesco Graffitti, Peter Barrow, Dmytro Kundys, Cyril Branciard, Martin Ringbauer, Alessandro Fedrizzi

The scientific method relies on facts, established through repeated measurements and agreed upon universally, independently of who observed them. In quantum mechanics, the objectivity of observations is not so clear, most dramatically exposed in Eugene Wigner's eponymous thought experiment where two observers can experience seemingly different realities. The question whether these realities can be reconciled in an observer-independent way has long remained inaccessible to empirical investigation, until recent no-go-theorems constructed an extended Wigner's friend scenario with four observers that allows us to put it to the test. In a state-of-the-art 6-photon experiment, we realise this extended Wigner's friend scenario, experimentally violating the associated Bell-type inequality by 5 standard deviations. If one holds fast to the assumptions of locality and free-choice, this result implies that quantum theory should be interpreted in an observer-dependent way.

arxiv.org...

Let me say this again:

In other words, Wigner's Friend makes a choice to measure the state of a quantum system, he becomes entangled with the superposition of the quantum system and in his local frame of reference(the lab) he thinks a measurement has occured but Wigner outside the lab can still measure interference until he makes a choice to become aware of the measurement that his friend in the lab recorded.

Again, how is the quantum system aware if Wigner knows it's state or not? Awareness is fundamental. There's no evidence that anything we call material can be aware of itself. Again, it's absurd to even think about.

Darwinist, how did non life evolve awareness of itself?

Starred and flagged!

Excellent post and this truly made no sense to me. How can something like awareness evolve? I think therefore I am. Awareness seems to just exist not emerge.