(Biblical) Eternal Punishment vs Annihilation: What's your opinion?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
El Goobero, I think you are sidestepping. Death has NOT been defeated if some are still dead. How can God mock death as He does, if Death still has hold of anyone?

are you saying death is a conscious entity and will continue to exist as long as it 'holds' people?

if it is, it is all about the process. "I'm Death. I killed you. You're dead. Time to move on."

a reply to: ElGoobero

I believe it's more akin to the the "principalities" which are alive and heavenly beings which have power over entire people's but also have a consciousness.

a reply to: ElGoobero

I'm saying that God's victory over death will not be complete until ALL have been rescued from the state of being dead. Only then can He mock death, but He does so in the pages of the Bible in certain anticipation of victory.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So, effectively you believe God is going to force some people who hate Him, refuse to engage God, into a relationship with Him even though they refuse God
That’s not love either in my opinion

God is love, God can’t force salvation, surely?

a reply to: Raggedyman

God wants people to willingly serve him. Had that not been the case, wouldn't he have stopped the angels from rebelling and made Adam and Eve never envounter a serpent. It's the choice to do wrong that makes the good right if I throw you over an Olympic bar during a pole vaulting competition, did you win?

a reply to: Raggedyman

On the other hand, you are implying that the will of the creature can overturn the Will of its Creator.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

The reason that hell is not mentioned at that time is that hell did not exist till men died. Hell is a place in this earth according to Jewish and Christian understanding. At one time it was common belief that all dead souls were contained in the place called Sheol. [Luke 16:19-31. It was created when the world was created.

Today hell still exists in Christianity as a place for the unrighteous dead souls. The righteous dead souls that were in hell have been rescued by the Christ as He offered His kingdom of heaven on the cross.

a reply to: Seede

My rabbit hole regarding "hell":

We find "hell" in the KJV.

We find "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV.

From some centuries earlier, we find "hell," "hel" and "helle" in the Angle-Saxon epic "Beowulf."

"Beowulf" is set in Denmark, and all the characters are Scandinavian, so let's look into Norse mythology.

In Norse mythology, we find the goddess/ogress Hel, who ruled over her afterlife realm of Helheim (House of Hel). The pagan Norse thought that if you did not rate going to Valhalla, you went to Helheim.

Now you know the origin of "hell."

BTW, if you check out "hell" in the OED, you will find that the word entered the English language, though it wasn't English as we know it yet, about 850 AD, a period in which a LOT of Nordic words were coming over from the Danelaw, an area of England once colonized by Danes.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Oh don't get me started on the origins and history of the English language. It's my first language and I don't like it, lol. Latanized Germanic with Celtic structure. But yeah, Hell as we know it comes from various other Religions.

a reply to: GolgothaBridge

OTOH, English is my first language...and I love it.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Where I live you need Spanish, and I can read a bit of Hebrew and Greek, and a bit of Russian too.

By the way, I like that you know the behold hand behold nail message. What about the secret of the first word of the bible in paleo Hebrew print?

originally posted by: GolgothaBridge
I know what I believe, but I know there is some debate. I would like to see everyone's view backed up by scripture to see why people believe differently. For believers, do you believe that those who are not under the blood of Jesus will be in hell eternally or temporarily before being destroyed? Please point to scriptures which guide your beliefs.

I believe in eternal/everlasting separation from God in the lake of fire. The same Greek word Jesus uses for “everlasting” in Matthew 25:41:..

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

..is the word He uses for eternal/everlasting life in John 3:16:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

The Greek word is “aiōnios” (αἰώνιος) and means a period of time without end, eternal, forever. In the NT this word is translated 42 times as “everlasting” and 25 times as “eternal”. (Once it is translated as “forever”)

If a person wants to believe the lake of fire isn’t eternal/everlasting judgment and torment then they have absolutely no basis to believe heaven is eternal or everlasting life without end either. It’s the same word.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: GolgothaBridge

What about “everyone receives salvation”, you missed that

Then who are the goats in Matthew 25:41?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: GolgothaBridge

If you don’t accept Jesus you want receive eternal life from Him, that’s the whole point

And how did that same Jesus define “eternal life”? 😏👇

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” - John 17:3

Eternal death (second death) is described in Matthew 25:41, and it’s not eternal non-existence.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

It states “eternal flames made for demons” eternal flames of hell, not eternal life for people
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

It doesn’t say life is eternal for humanity, just the flames

I don’t believe everyone receives salvation, just wanted people to see another perspective others believe

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
If a person wants to believe the lake of fire isn’t eternal/everlasting judgment and torment then they have absolutely no basis to believe heaven is eternal or everlasting life without end either. It’s the same word.

The lake of fire was made for the eternal being satan, humans are not eternal, I understand they will not stay there eternally but burn away as if chaff

If you can show me where humans are eternal outside of Jesus, outside of heaven.

The tree of life is in heaven as described in Revelations 22, that’s why we have eternal life with Jesus and those in hell do not have eternal life

a reply to: GolgothaBridge

Not following you.
If I asked Jesus to throw me or is Jesus just apprehending me and throwing me?
One is by request, the other is assault

God called us to accept Him and yes, serve Him
But I don’t believe God will force us to love Him, throw us over a pole vaulting bar without us requesting Him too

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
If a person wants to believe the lake of fire isn’t eternal/everlasting judgment and torment then they have absolutely no basis to believe heaven is eternal or everlasting life without end either. It’s the same word.

The lake of fire was made for the eternal being satan, humans are not eternal, I understand they will not stay there eternally but burn away as if chaff

If you can show me where humans are eternal outside of Jesus, outside of heaven.

The tree of life is in heaven as described in Revelations 22, that’s why we have eternal life with Jesus and those in hell do not have eternal life

The resurrection of the dead (lost souls) happens in Revelation 20, right before the Great White Throne Judgment. Everyone at that judgment is cast into the lake of fire, where the fire is never quenched and there is no rest for the wicked for all of eternity.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes, that's my point. If someone really does not want to serve God, he will not make them.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Yes, I know you can achieve everlasting life, and the flame are everlasting, but if you are thrown into the everlasting flames do you last forever? I believe you do, but I'm looking for any evidence that this is what it means without inferring anything.