Why do we have to wear a mask if I am vaccinated?

Remember when they were pushing the masks on everybody? Now the vaccinated people will be blaming the unvaccinated for having to still wear the masks. Now they will be tooting a different horn, the “if everybody gets vaxed then nobody needs masks” one. Lol.

a reply to: chr0naut

"Usually, when I post something humorous or sarcastic, I utilize the symbol to flag that, for those who are not easily amused"


Am aware you frequently do this.

Better than nothing.

But doesn't help build credibility as subject matter expert.



Here are some users I admire as highly credible and valued subject matter experts (sometimes subject matter is simply common sense)

cowboy, redneck, byrd, snowman, texan & zaphod

NOT a complete list, just a few good examples.

Study their behavior here.

You won't find any clown (or at least very little)

Or frequent barfing emojis.

They don't stoop down to stupid users.

They probably have no interest in such AND know it would ruin their credibility here.

YOU have the potential to join elite club.

On very important issues like covid & vax.

IF you find a way to develop credibility.

And stop throwing it away at every opportunity.

Or you can be clown.

This IS a social network, and completely your choice.

originally posted by: Nunyabizisit
a reply to: chr0naut

"Usually, when I post something humorous or sarcastic, I utilize the symbol to flag that, for those who are not easily amused"

Am aware you frequently do this.

Better than nothing.

But doesn't help build credibility as subject matter expert.

I'm not a subject matter expert. I am a person discussing various topics.

Here are some users I admire as highly credible and valued subject matter experts (sometimes subject matter is simply common sense)

cowboy, redneck, byrd, snowman, texan & zaphod

NOT a complete list, just a few good examples.

Study their behavior here.

You won't find any clown (or at least very little)

Or frequent barfing emojis.

The emoji I use is with the tongue stuck out, not the barfing one.

They don't stoop down to stupid users.

They probably have no interest in such AND know it would ruin their credibility here.

YOU have the potential to join elite club.

On very important issues like covid & vax.

IF you find a way to develop credibility.

And stop throwing it away at every opportunity.

Or you can be clown.

This IS a social network, and completely your choice.

OK.

originally posted by: Brassmonkey
Ok so the CDC just reversed it’s recommendation
For masks indoors. They are now recommending that people who have been vaccinated still have to wear a mask now.

My question is simple:

What data is there that supports this recommendation?
The only answer that the White House press secretary gave today was “ It’s an extra layer of support and you can still
Transmit the virus”

What the? That’s not an answer. Does the vaccine work? Every study I have seen says it’s 95% effective. I like SCIENCE AND DATA.

I was promised by President Biden that if I got the vaccine then everything would go back to normal. Now I am immunized and I have to wear a mask now?

Well, you might have gotten the vaccine but fewer than 55% of the people in the US have done this (and let's not forget the rest of the world which we're connected to via air transport and roads (Canada).

Okay, let's back away a bit and if I may... use an analogy?

Pandemics are like wildfires (ohboy! Yes, it's chaos theory time, folks (no kidding)) -- you can 'sort of' map out how and where they're going but sudden events (gust of wind, rainfall, or encountering a farmer's field) can change how hot and fast it burns and what direction it's going.

So we have things in a pandemic like "some people can have it and not show signs, some show signs early and are 'hot' earlier, some are 'hot' later" and activities like singing, shouting, hugging, etc.

As with a fire, if the "fuel" can be removed from around the burning areas, you can slow it down and dump enough water on it to put it out. That's what we did with polio (an example I remember vividly because I have friends who were in iron lungs for awhile because of polio).

Polio was a relatively slow burning 'fire' and hotspots were easy to catch because air travel was very rare, people usually didn't travel far from home, and towns were smaller (on the average) than today. So a 'fire' that hit and was burning in a semi-desert area (like West Texas.)

With Covid, we had a fire that hit in some spots with a lot of "fuel" (via cruise ship into California AND New York via airline flights from Europe. So imagine a fire starting in a spot in the woods with lots and lots of dead trees and underbrush... AND there's lots of wind to carry embers aloft to different areas (Covid carriers going into public in megacities, unaware that they're shedding virus loads). Pretty soon there's fire everywhere... and... the wind carries embers that sometimes start fires in other locations (you've surely seen this, right?)

So we say 'put on your mask' (make a fire break around your house.) Will it keep all the embers off your house? No guarantee but if they get there, there's less for them to burn and you can get the fire under control before it destroys everything you own. Same with Covid. Get the shot (like a fire break) and it will save most homes and help reduce damage if the house catches on fire anyway.

Fire can still hit the area that burned because it doesn't burn everything completely. If it sweeps through an area but only burns along one street then the houses in the area are NOT completely protected because a second fire can come in right after that and feed on the houses that aren't protected. Some unprotected houses will not burn and won't be damaged. Some protected houses may have problems. But if you look at the area afterwards, the protected houses have less damage and fewer burn completely.


I hope the analogy makes sense.

Viruses mutate naturally. That's what they do. If there's only a few hosts, it won't mutate and you can stomp that sucker out pretty quickly. If you've got six billion hosts (the world) it has six billion chances to mutate -- and it will do so rather quickly. Given the huge number of international travelers flying into and out of our country every day (Twenty million last year, because travel was shut down by Covid. Normally it can be up to sixty six million) that's a HUGE number of embers that can drop the virus into our major population centers.

Vaccination and masks are a good double protection (like a fire break plus a sprinkler system.) Yeah, it can break down, but the odds of my house burning down are much smaller...and if my house doesn't catch on fire it protects other houses in the neighborhood. If almost everyone's house is protected, the chances of losing the neighborhood and local businesses is greatly reduced.


Given the number of people who don't want to take any protective action here in the US, we are going to see more mutations, both home grown and imported into cities with large airports through air travel. I expect things in Florida will get much worse and Texas as well, particularly after school opens. I'd hoped to be able to travel to Florida this fall, but not with the numbers I'm seeing from that state. My personal speculation is that there'll be a big spike in September-October (college kids as well) and one around Thanksgiving and Christmas this year.

That could be changed with masks and vaccinations but I don't hold out much hope for that. My best guess is that we'll see a third variant show up (possibly the Lambda one that's starting to make the rounds) and we'll get this same pattern again... and again.

I hope this makes sense about why recommendations change (because like fire, the wind (movement of people) do unexpected things to the situation). Some of it is driven by political pressure, but in the main it's because conditions "on the ground" are changing (you don't want to have everyone dig a fire break if the monsoon season is starting and the fire is headed in a different direction.)

Gad. Long post. No easy explanation.

a reply to: Byrd

You

Polio was a relatively slow burning 'fire' and hotspots were easy to catch because air travel was very rare, people usually didn't travel far from home, and towns were smaller (on the average) than today. So a 'fire' that hit and was burning in a semi-desert area (like West Texas.)

Polio was feces to mouth transmitted. And improved sanitation actuality aided in causing the worst cases…

How Improved Public Sanitation Created the Polio Epidemic

parentingpatch.com...

You

That could be changed with masks

By wearing cheap cloth/fabric masks that are not effective?

When is a water droplet an micrometer-size aerosol?

Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19


www.pnas.org...

In addition, nascent micrometer-size aerosols produced from coughing/sneezing of infected people have the potential of containing many viruses, particularly for asymptomatic carriers (16).

Future research is critically needed to assess the transmission, transformation, and dispersion of virus-bearing aerosols from human atomization under different environmental conditions, as well as the related impacts on virus infectivity. It is equally important to understand human atomization of airborne viruses: What are the number and size distributions of nascent aerosols as well as the viral load per particle from coughing/sneezing?

What size must a water droplet be for a virus to remain suspended in the air.

The virus can also spread in poorly ventilated and/or crowded indoor settings, where people tend to spend longer periods of time. This is because aerosols remain suspended in the air or travel farther than 1 metre (long-range).

www.who.int...

I have no problem if they recommend wearing a mask that actually works and seals like a N-95 without a valve. Changing the mask out ever 45 minutes. And had proper mask disposal.

This cheap mask, double mask, cloth mask, homemade bandana crap is a joke.

and vaccinations

If covid vaccinations weren’t leaky vaccinations.

‘Leaky’ Vaccines Can Produce Stronger Versions of Viruses

www.healthline.com...

a reply to: Brassmonkey

Because the Vaccinated are creating the Variant's

Flashback MAY 2021

BOMBSHELL : - Prof. Luc Montagnier said that epidemiologists know but are “silent” about the phenomenon, known as “Antibody-Dependent Enhancement” (ADE).

Vaccines are Creating the Variants

Prof. Montagnier referred to the vaccine program for the coronavirus as an “unacceptable mistake”. Mass vaccinations are a “scientific error as well as a medical error,” he said. “It is an unacceptable mistake. The history books will show that, because it is the vaccination that is creating the variants,” Prof. Luc Montagnier continued.

Luc Montagnier - Photo gallery - NobelPrize.org
Receiving the Nobel Prize in 2008
The prominent virologist explained that “there are antibodies, created by the vaccine,” forcing the virus to “find another solution” or die. This is where the variants are created. It is the variants that “are a production and result from the vaccination.”

Many thanks to HeHa and Miss Piggy for the translation!

(Questions are bolded)

If we look at the curve from the WHO, since the vaccinations started in January, the curve showing new infections (contamination) has exploded, along with deaths.

Notably among young people.

—Yes. With thromboses, etc.

How do you view the mass vaccination program? Mass vaccination compared to treatments that work and aren’t expensive.

—It’s an enormous mistake, isn’t it? A scientific error as well as a medical error. It is an unacceptable mistake. The history books will show that, because it is the vaccination that is creating the variants.

—For the China virus, there are antibodies, created by the vaccine. What does the virus do? Does it die or find another solution?

—The new variants are a production and result from the vaccination. You see it in each country, it’s the same: the curve of vaccination is followed by the curve of deaths.

—I’m following this closely and I am doing experiments at the Institute with patients who became sick with Corona after being vaccinated. I will show you that they are creating the variants that are resistant to the vaccine.

Should we be vaccinating during a pandemic?

—It’s unthinkable.

—They’re silent… many people know this, epidemiologists know it.

—It is the antibodies produced by the virus that enable an infection to become stronger.

—It’s what we call Antibody Dependent Enhancement, which means antibodies favor a certain infection. The antibody attaches to the virus, from that moment it has the receptors, the antibodies, we have them in the macrophage etc.

—It pokes the virus and not accidentally, but because of the fact that they’re linked to the antibodies.

—It is clear that the new variants are created by antibody-mediated selection due to the vaccination. OK?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Byrd

You

Polio was a relatively slow burning 'fire' and hotspots were easy to catch because air travel was very rare, people usually didn't travel far from home, and towns were smaller (on the average) than today. So a 'fire' that hit and was burning in a semi-desert area (like West Texas.)

Polio was feces to mouth transmitted. And improved sanitation actuality aided in causing the worst cases…

How Improved Public Sanitation Created the Polio Epidemic

parentingpatch.com...

I'm skeptical of the article, frankly, because it means that polio should have been erased in third world countries first and would have been a minor issue in small rural towns. Neither of those is true.

By wearing cheap cloth/fabric masks that are not effective?

When is a water droplet an micrometer-size aerosol?

Yes, and cheap cloth masks are effective. When you exhale, you are not breathing out neatly separated components (the smells of your body, water vapor, carbon dioxide, viruses, bacteria, oxygen.) Most of that rides out on the water vapor you are exhaling.

Which means that cheap cloth masks work just fine to keep most of that contained. In addition, it changes the pattern of air flow around your face.

Surgeons and technicians and nurses, by the way, wear cloth masks in surgery to protect themselves and patients and have done so for over a hundred years. If they weren't effective, they wouldn't be wearing them in surgery.

As for "leaky vaccines" that's a theory (I looked at the paper) that they're investigating but has not been proven. Is it plausible? Well...that's the way that natural immunity and pandemics work -- if there's enough of the virus around and the immune are carrying it, it can mutate to a form where it attacks someone immune to the other strain.

However, viruses mutate faster with a larger pool of virus carriers... i.e., a lot of sick people. That's what we're seeing with the Gamma variant from Brazil and the Delta variant from India and the Lambda variant from Peru (which had a staggeringly high case count) and South America. If vaccines were the significant cause of mutations we would be seeing variants from United Arab Emirates (the most vaccinated country, according to records) and Chile, Israel, Canada, etcetera

So, looking at what's happening elsewhere can give you insights on what strategies are working and how reliable some of the claims are.

a reply to: Byrd

I'm skeptical of the article, frankly, because it means that polio should have been erased in third world countries first and would have been a minor issue in small rural towns. Neither of those is true.

Sigh

The how was polio spread?

What caused the uptick in new cases in the 1950’s in older people.

Yes, and cheap cloth masks are effective.

Then why the push to double mask for cloth / procedural fabric masks….

At that point, just put on a F’n N-95 mask.

Cheap masks are not effective because the don’t seal as attested to by my safety glasses fogging up when I head to wear them at work.

Surgeons and technicians and nurses, by the way, wear cloth masks in surgery to protect themselves and patients and have done so for over a hundred years. If they weren't effective, they wouldn't be wearing them in surgery.

One. Basically so they don’t drool on their patient.

Two. I see healthcare workers wearing a hell of a lot more PPE than a cheap mask when treating COVID-19 patients. Especially when they do anything that might make aerosols.

What happens when you sneeze in a cheap cloth mask wetted with use?

The reason the vaccinated need to wear masks again is, because even though they are squelching the data, the vaccinated are building up enough of a viral load in their nose to transfer to and infect other people. They have already admitted that it does occur. I think it probably occurs more than they are saying at the moment and that is why they are pushing the masks again.

Mmmkay. I went off to look at the papers... and the data. I confess I was surprised to find that your statement was correct; there is an association between improved sanitation and polio. Having dodged that particular bullet, I didn't actually look into the epidemic itself. It was over and done (I still remember how apprehensive everyone was) and I went on to other things.

If I remember correctly, the first push for cloth masks was to reserve the dwindling N-95 masks for health care workers. While they're not N-95, they're accessible to everyone and are, frankly, better than nothing at all.

Do you have a link for "surgeons wear masks so they don't drool on patients" as opposed to "reduce viral/bacterial load on patient during surgery"?

Yes, health care workers wear PPE and so forth when dealing with covid patients. But that's not practical for the public at large. Masks are better than nothing at all, and frankly even small mitigation efforts help change the course of the pandemic.

a reply to: Byrd

You

f I remember correctly, the first push for cloth masks was to reserve the dwindling N-95 masks for health care workers.

And now N-95 masks are available for the general public.

Double Masking ‘Makes Common Sense,’ Fauci Says

www.webmd.com...

And. Again. If cloth masks are effective, why the call to double mask. 😜

Again. At that point. Just wear an F’n N-95 mask. It actually seals to keep stuff in. If that’s what your worried about. They are still useless when wetted and moist from wearing too long.

But. Before what you mentioned.

March 2020: Dr. Anthony Fauci talks with Dr Jon LaPook about COVID-19
BY BRIT MCCANDLESS FARMER
MARCH 8, 2020 / 7:02 PM / CBS NEWS

www.cbsnews.com...

When it comes to preventing coronavirus, public health officials have been clear: Healthy people do not need to wear a face mask to protect themselves from COVID-19.

How U.S. hospitals are preparing, and what leading health officials say about coronavirus
"There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.

Ever feel like a puppet on a string.

Do you have a link for "surgeons wear masks so they don't drool on patients" as opposed to "reduce viral/bacterial load on patient during surgery"?

Have a study? But it is important to keep foreign material like hair, bits of food, drool, snot, sweat, mucus from containing an incision. It’s not just about bacteria. It’s about keeping out anything that my causes the body to react, and fester.

Funny no mention of masks in this article…

The Use of Antibiotics before and after Orthopaedic Surger

www.osc-ortho.com...

Now. N-95 masks are import to more people than health care workers.

Choosing a Respirator for Silica

pksafety.com...

When choosing a respirator for silica dust, look for a NIOSH rating of N95 at a minimum. There are a variety of styles available, from a 2-strap 'dust mask' style up to a full face respirator, with re-usable half masks in the middle. Making sure that you have a good fit is very important. The N95 rated filter will capture 95% of the dust particles, but only a good fit insures that all of the air is filtered. As an upgrade, we suggest also looking at P100 filters. These are rated even higher, to capture 99.9% of the particulates.

Best Masks to Prevent Mold Inhalation
The best mask for cleaning mold is an N95 respirator. N95 respirators are a type of particulate mask with a built-in filtration system that — when fit securely against your face — will prevent small mold particles from reaching your nose and mouth. They are also the only mold mask approved by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH).

sunlinesupply.arnoldsofficefurniture.com...

3M™ Particulate Welding Respirator 8212, N95 with Faceseal 80 EA/Case
, , ,

www.3m.com...

It's to protect the a******s who publicly shame the people that are wearing them from the virus. Last I checked (a while ago), the science kinda stopped once everything went political. There have been cases of vaccinated people causing clusters amongst their own vaccinated family/friends, but I think the clustering aspect is making it difficult to come to reliable conclusions. With that, the CDC seems to be swinging back and forth between CYA based recommendations on both sides of the partisan divide. Then again, maybe it all makes sense?

originally posted by: neutronflux in response to my question "Do you have a link for "surgeons wear masks so they don't drool on patients" as opposed to "reduce viral/bacterial load on patient during surgery"?"

Have a study? But it is important to keep foreign material like hair, bits of food, drool, snot, sweat, mucus from containing an incision. It’s not just about bacteria. It’s about keeping out anything that my causes the body to react, and fester

In other words, "no." You don't. And that's what I suspected (and I'm sure other readers do as well) -- making up facts isn't a good way to present an argument. Everybody in the operating room is masked and was masked... a process that began in 1897 with physicians and grew to include the operating room staff by 1935

I trust you'll accept the British Medical Journal as a reliable source?

Lancet and others, of course, note that the mask is a two-way street: it protects the operating room staff from anything the patient carries, and vice-versa.

And. Again. If cloth masks are effective, why the call to double mask.

Because you may need that extra protection -- like my medically fragile friend, who uses both a cloth mask that she likes but puts a paper mask underneath. When the risk here in Dallas was lower, she used just the cloth mask. It helped her breathe (dust in the air and other particulate matter.) Now we're a "high transmission" area, and we're both double masking.

And you know, I like my cloth masks. I found some interesting designs and some with sayings (like tee-shirts.) I enjoy wearing them but... now I'm going back to double-masking.

If you need it mainly for allergens and the occasional germ-laden person, cloth masks are cheap and washable. That's the other reason my friend uses a cloth mask -- she's on a fixed income and it's cheaper to hand wash her little cloth mask that she uses for short errands and so forth than it is to haul out an N-95 mask every single time and reuse that.

Funny no mention of masks in this article…
The Use of Antibiotics before and after Orthopaedic Surger

www.osc-ortho.com...

What a peculiar article! I notice it didn't mention surgical booties, surgical gloves, surgical sponges, surgical gowns, surgical caps in addition to not mentioning surgical masks (cloth or otherwise.) Do you suppose that means that gowns, masks, sponges, gloves, booties, and caps are also not effective?

(yes, I did devolve into irony, there.)

In short, I contend that SOME protection is better for all of us than NO protection.

There's all kinds of studies (good, bad, ugly) out there. I have not seen a convincing one that "no mask is better than some mask" and none of the things you have cited have been a particularly strong argument against my position.

originally posted by: precariousfence
It's to protect the a******s who publicly shame the people that are wearing them from the virus. Last I checked (a while ago), the science kinda stopped once everything went political. There have been cases of vaccinated people causing clusters amongst their own vaccinated family/friends, but I think the clustering aspect is making it difficult to come to reliable conclusions. With that, the CDC seems to be swinging back and forth between CYA based recommendations on both sides of the partisan divide. Then again, maybe it all makes sense?

The swing is due to the changing nature of the pandemic.

When it was one strain and the harsh restrictions seemed to get it under control, recommendations change. Then along came the variants and changes in behavior (Spring Break, Lollapalooza festival, etc, etc) and the number of people with the illness and who can be affected changes.

It's really like fighting wildfires. When the fire is far away, the government gives you one instruction. When the wind changes and the direction and spread changes, they will change that mandate. When the wind/weather changes again, they change their recommendations and mandates to cover the new situation.

Like a wildfire, a pandemic isn't a static thing. It can go back over previous territory, can change directions in an instant, and can go from a small localized thing to a huge menace in a very short time. Not changing your recommendation as the situation changes is a recipe for disaster.

a reply to: Byrd


Thank you Byrd!

If only the official narrative would have been this:

"In short, I contend that SOME protection is better for all of us than NO protection."

And something about common sense & personal decision as to where it should be used.

I think that would have been both more effective and less controversial.

a reply to: Brassmonkey

its not just about the vaccinated being protected, its also about not spreading it to unvaccinated or people who cant get both shots, not only that but the vaccine is slowly losing effectiveness, its only 84% effective at the moment and some strains are resistant already. even with a vaccine the virus isn't going to just go away, you'll probably need vaccinated every few years or even more often.

the only way to kill it is to eliminate all avenues to spread and mutate.