Natural Immunity Vs. "Vaccine"--What Works Best?

a reply to: nonspecific
Go do your own research, I've been doing mine for past 16 months. What I have learnt I have added to my previous existing qualified knowledge of human biology.
We are adults here, I am not here to spoon feed you info. Put your big boy pants on, do some research and find the evidence which debunks my claim. That's how it usually works around here in the adult world.
Sorry, but I'm pretty pi**ed off with you accusing me of being an anti-vaxxer.

a reply to: McGinty
The pcr test detects a spike protein, the same spike protein being mass produced in cells after the jab?...hmmmmm?

Rainbows
Jane

So I ask for evidence and you turn nasty?

I didn't say you were and anti vaxxer. I asked you if the vaccines were proven safe and your immunity gained from contracting covid 19 became no longer efficient if you would take one and you said no?

If you wouldn't take a proven safe vaccine that would help you against a dangerous virus you had no adequate inherent protection against it seemed you might he against vaccines altogether so I asked?

There's nothing wrong with being against vaccines or modern medicine, some people prefer a fully holistic approach.


a reply to: angelchemuel

a reply to: nonspecific
No you didn't say that, this is what you said...

So you are pretty much anti vaccination.full stop then?

Not just covid 19 or mRNA you personally don't agree with them as something people need?

I asked you if the vaccines were proven safe and your immunity gained from contracting covid 19 became no longer efficient if you would take one and you said no?

Because I understand how the human immune system works, once 'programmed' you pretty much have it until old age when everything starts going into decline. My level of fear towards a coronavirus (common cold) is pretty much very low now,

If you wouldn't take a proven safe vaccine that would help you against a dangerous virus you had no adequate inherent protection against it seemed you might he against vaccines altogether so I asked?

Again, first this vaccine is not proven safe by any stretch of the imagination. It's an un-licensed medicine. Second, this is not a dangerous virus that is being promulgated, the 99% survival rate proves that. IF the reverse were true, ie deadly lethal virus has safe vaccine then yes I would take it. But given that is not the case then no, I do not want to take it!
How many times do I have to go round in circles with you here?

As you say this is now circular.

You claim to know how the human immune system works but it's pretty clear your understanding of both the immune system and viruses is somewhat flawed.

As I said before keep safe over the next rew months as it's going to be a bit of a bumpy ride regardless of our immune status.

originally posted by: angelchemuel
a reply to: nonspecific
No you didn't say that, this is what you said...

So you are pretty much anti vaccination.full stop then?

Not just covid 19 or mRNA you personally don't agree with them as something people need?

I asked you if the vaccines were proven safe and your immunity gained from contracting covid 19 became no longer efficient if you would take one and you said no?

Because I understand how the human immune system works, once 'programmed' you pretty much have it until old age when everything starts going into decline. My level of fear towards a coronavirus (common cold) is pretty much very low now,

If you wouldn't take a proven safe vaccine that would help you against a dangerous virus you had no adequate inherent protection against it seemed you might he against vaccines altogether so I asked?

Again, first this vaccine is not proven safe by any stretch of the imagination. It's an un-licensed medicine. Second, this is not a dangerous virus that is being promulgated, the 99% survival rate proves that. IF the reverse were true, ie deadly lethal virus has safe vaccine then yes I would take it. But given that is not the case then no, I do not want to take it!
How many times do I have to go round in circles with you here?

a reply to: flice

The problem is not the vaccine as such... the problem is the delivery system.

Before its emergency authorization, it has only ever been used in animal tests, never humans.

Not true prior to covid it has been used for rabies, Zika virus disease, cytomegalovirus, and influenza.

My gf, who is a genetisist told me the way they used to do test in animals during her studies is that they have a lot of subjects and then they discard the ones who doesnt show a positive result towards the goal.
Because they had so many test subjects they werent specifically focused on the delivery system.

Somewhat correct but not entirely. The reason this is done is you want to find out what works and not what doesn't work. So you try different ways to see if you can attain mRNA delivery. Then from there you take the ones that work and try to improve the process It's not about discarding anything if it failed there isn't further to go with that other than to realize that method didn't work.

But she told me that mRNA breaks down very easily.

True in a matter of hours unprotected with lipids to protect it up to 72 hours.

The real problem is this shell with the spike.
The code inside the shell tells our immune system how to react isnt the problem.

Shes is still correct the spike protein only works when it's connected to the virus. But I think you misunderstood her in the vaccine for mRNA there is no shell produced. Unless she meant the lipids in the orinal vaccine but its not really a shell like a cell has.

The lipid can traverse into the bloodstream if you are unlucky... and the spike can break off, become free roaming and lodge itself in tissue.

If she means the covid virus yes that is how it reproduces and does damage to lungs and heart. If she means the virus she might want to go talk with some of her professors and get a refresher course on transfection.

The code inside the delivery system does more or less the same as what the live virus does, sans the delivery system.

Yes, she's right again the vaccine will cause specialized immune system cells called T and B lymphocytes, or T and B cells, become activated. The exact same process if you get Covid are immune system can't tell any difference.

a reply to: angelchemuel

Ok your wrong the immune system doesn't protect you forever just because you had it before. If that were true the word chronic would have never been invented. Very few diseases give you lifetime protection don't make that assumption it's dangerous. The immune system’s response and memory can vary depending on the pathogen. Sometimes you need booster shots on a regular basis to remind our immune system of the organism. This is why even shots for children are given at different ages. If you gain long-term immunity it's because you never truly got rid of the virus merely make it controllable by your immune system. Chickenpox is a great example once you get it you have it for life. Just your immune system kills it off not allowing it to take over. Though when you get older it can lead to shingles.

Again, first this vaccine is not proven safe by any stretch of the imagination. It's an un-licensed medicine. Second, this is not a dangerous virus that is being promulgated, the 99% survival rate proves that. IF the reverse were true, ie deadly lethal virus has safe vaccine then yes I would take it. But given that is not the case then no, I do not want to take it!
How many times do I have to go round in circles with you here?

Here you bought into a lie first it is licensed it just has not received its final license which won't happen until they have years of data 3 to 5 years worth on the average for a vaccine once it starts being used. (all vaccines do not receive final approval until they have been on the market for a couple of years) Now that 99 percent drops down considerably as you get older. And depends on the level of healthcare available in the US it's currently 98 percent survive. In Peru it's 90 percent. So the hospitals matter to prevent deaths. A more accurate comparison is how many are hospitalized. For covid that's about 6 percent world wide.

As for choosing not to take it that's your choice and for you that may work in fact I hope it does but not everyone is as fortunate as you.

Not everyone has an immune system that can mount a proper immune response. Some people — particularly the elderly, and the immunocompromised can't afford the risk of catching the virus. You have to make decisions on what's best for your family and friends.

You claim to know how the human immune system works but it's pretty clear your understanding of both the immune system and viruses is somewhat flawed.

a reply to: nonspecific


Yrs she has made a lot of common mistakes on what the virus does and how it works. I'll say this it's not her fault though everyone is quick to pass judgement without checking the facts they are being given. A lot of misinformation is being flooded onto the net. I try to correct the record as much as I can but sadly people are going to believe what they will.

I look at it this way it's simple for me talk with your doctor the two of you decide what's best for you and go from there. It's your body and it's your choice just don't let your misinformation kill someone who should have gotten the shot but saw something or read it and it causes their death when it could have been prevented. Please you decide it's not right for you dont talk say your grandparents out of it it could save their lives.

As I've said on a few threads now I'm really not interested in who chooses to take or not take a vaccine, it's not my decision.

What I do take issue with though is people either intentionally or unintentionally telling others things that are untrue and may impact the decision.

And that goes for both sides of the debate not just the anti side of it.

originally posted by: dragonridr

You claim to know how the human immune system works but it's pretty clear your understanding of both the immune system and viruses is somewhat flawed.

a reply to: nonspecific


Yrs she has made a lot of common mistakes on what the virus does and how it works. I'll say this it's not her fault though everyone is quick to pass judgement without checking the facts they are being given. A lot of misinformation is being flooded onto the net. I try to correct the record as much as I can but sadly people are going to believe what they will.

I look at it this way it's simple for me talk with your doctor the two of you decide what's best for you and go from there. It's your body and it's your choice just don't let your misinformation kill someone who should have gotten the shot but saw something or read it and it causes their death when it could have been prevented. Please you decide it's not right for you dont talk say your grandparents out of it it could save their lives.

a reply to: dragonridr
So you want a pop now too, fair enough.
Show me where I said this....

Ok your wrong the immune system doesn't protect you forever just because you had it before.

I didn't.
So now I am a liar?

Here you bought into a lie first it is licensed it just has not received its final license which won't happen until they have years of data 3 to 5 years worth on the average for a vaccine once it starts being used.

It is an emergency use licence. Not fully licensed! FFS, Semantics much?
This I agree with...

A more accurate comparison is how many are hospitalized.

I've always maintained the daily hospitalisation figures are more relevant than the 'positive tests'.

Not everyone has an immune system that can mount a proper immune response. Some people — particularly the elderly,

Again agreed!

originally posted by: dragonridr

You claim to know how the human immune system works but it's pretty clear your understanding of both the immune system and viruses is somewhat flawed.

a reply to: nonspecific


Yrs she has made a lot of common mistakes on what the virus does and how it works. I'll say this it's not her fault though everyone is quick to pass judgement without checking the facts they are being given. A lot of misinformation is being flooded onto the net. I try to correct the record as much as I can but sadly people are going to believe what they will.

I look at it this way it's simple for me talk with your doctor the two of you decide what's best for you and go from there. It's your body and it's your choice just don't let your misinformation kill someone who should have gotten the shot but saw something or read it and it causes their death when it could have been prevented. Please you decide it's not right for you dont talk say your grandparents out of it it could save their lives.

God Complex much?

a reply to: nonspecific

Heres the thing though.. How do we actually determine what is true or not?

Data and research are absolutely critical, but a lot of folks seem to be simply accepting what is presented. Perhaps not an issue in a system that upholds integrity.. but a very big issue when things like data trail integrity are compromised.

And they are.

The numbers for both cases and deaths are completely wonky. Instead of taking some aggregate (like worldometer, etc) at their word, we must actually examine the entire data trail. When this is done, we encounter some serious problems; reported deaths dont seem to align with what is happening. For a single instance, we saw hundreds and hundreds of deaths reported from a nursing home with less than one hundred beds. We have situations where cases are informed by tests that, historically, have driven literal false epidemics before.

These are serious issues regardless of the situation.

But theres more..

We have seen unprecedented retractions in journals and a near total breakdown of the scientific process. Again, people simply take the headlines or conclusions at their word. But, when methodology is literally sculping meaningless results, who do you believe? Testing an antiviral in severe late stages, or without known critical components, will lead to predictable results.

But theres more..

What happens when our entire medical apparatus focuses on its strength (emergency care) at the cost of preventative or early treatment? Who do you listen to?

But theres more..

When many measures have a higher likelihood of increasing the severity of a pandemic and are blatantly obviously politicized power grabs.. What is "true?"

But theres more..

When there seems no concern or attention to actual public health, at all, and to the detriment of everyone.. whose advice do you take?

But theres more..

When many are eradicated from the internet for raising any of these concerns, frequently with extraordinarily legitimate premises, who do you trust?

But theres more..

When some of the institutions and organizations at the forefront of decision making have a very long history of highly questionable ethics, who do you let control your life?

It's quite easy to use the questionable ethics of the large US pharmaceutical companies and with good reason.

Why would Oxford University develop a vaccine and why would the UK NHS be confident in its emergency approval alongside the US counterparts?

Why has Russia developed the Sputnik vaccine? They have a nationalised healthcare system so what is the benefit for them?

Why have all of the European nations agreed to licence the vaccines under emergency powers as well?

The big pharma argument only really works if applied only to the US doesn't it?



a reply to: Serdgiam

a reply to: nonspecific

Im not sure that those are salient rebuttals to my points. It seems, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you might be assuming that either I dont believe in the virus, the disease, or believe that "vaccines are bad." None of which is true.

Would you think I am against shoes if I questioned Nike's ethics? Probably not, but we are seeing something very similar playing out in large swathes of the population.

My simple answer would be that our cultural and social perspective is that vaccines are The Answer to all problems like this. Their development in a pandemic is completely expected and reasonably so. Essentially, "vaccines" have been put into a position where they are the only preventative or early treatment approach available, and until they are developed, people need to be restricted. Nearly all previously "understood" mechanics of pathogens has been thrown out the window under the auspices of novelty. Including, but not limited to, the natural processes that have evolved over millions of years.

Im not really making a "big pharma argument" either, though it would obviously be a facet. Every single one of those instances could have vastly different circumstances, despite being under the umbrella of "vaccines."

All else being equal, what do you think would happen in a nation that outright stated they were intentionally not attempting to develop a vaccine, nor were they willing to accept any vaccines that were developed? It would be more than a little foolish, particularly if no other measures were taken.

Beyond that.. No.. big pharma goes far beyond the US. Both in the development of products, as well as their derivatives/generics. I would classify it as being more applicable to "The West," though still not explicitly limited to it.

Overall, my opinion is also shaped by history and societal adaptation to how scale changes with advancing technology. In that, its only a matter of time before the same cycle repeats, as always; power hungry people attempt to control as much as current technology/tools allow. In modern terms, that would be transnational, if not global. Even if one doesnt believe that is relevant to this current predicament, its only a matter of time.

Those of us who have immunity due to Covid recovery, and shun the Vaccination, should have a rally. Giving the middle-finger to Biden and all the other idiots who want to control individual lives.

I'm not entirely sure what your points are to be honest as you seem to be a little vague as to what they actually are in an effort to get more of them across, or that may be me failing to understand you correctly.

You say that we are focusing too heavily on vaccines as a he all and end all solution when this has not been the case historically, is that correct?

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: nonspecific

Im not sure that those are salient rebuttals to my points. It seems, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you might be assuming that either I dont believe in the virus, the disease, or believe that "vaccines are bad." None of which is true.

Would you think I am against shoes if I questioned Nike's ethics? Probably not, but we are seeing something very similar playing out in large swathes of the population.

My simple answer would be that our cultural and social perspective is that vaccines are The Answer to all problems like this. Their development in a pandemic is completely expected and reasonably so. Essentially, "vaccines" have been put into a position where they are the only preventative or early treatment approach available, and until they are developed, people need to be restricted. Nearly all previously "understood" mechanics of pathogens has been thrown out the window under the auspices of novelty. Including, but not limited to, the natural processes that have evolved over millions of years.

Im not really making a "big pharma argument" either, though it would obviously be a facet. Every single one of those instances could have vastly different circumstances, despite being under the umbrella of "vaccines."

All else being equal, what do you think would happen in a nation that outright stated they were intentionally not attempting to develop a vaccine, nor were they willing to accept any vaccines that were developed? It would be more than a little foolish, particularly if no other measures were taken.

Beyond that.. No.. big pharma goes far beyond the US. Both in the development of products, as well as their derivatives/generics. I would classify it as being more applicable to "The West," though still not explicitly limited to it.

Overall, my opinion is also shaped by history and societal adaptation to how scale changes with advancing technology. In that, its only a matter of time before the same cycle repeats, as always; power hungry people attempt to control as much as current technology/tools allow. In modern terms, that would be transnational, if not global. Even if one doesnt believe that is relevant to this current predicament, its only a matter of time.

a reply to: Serdgiam

You lost me its not about big pharma several countries as you have mentioned have developed their own vaccine for Corona. Russia, India, UK, China, Iran and Switzerland, and soon France. The rest are purchasing it from countries that have vaccines.

Now I agree with you I think they went too far there was panic and people overreacted. This lead to alot of confusion at first wear masks don't wear masks etc. But that was because of this fear the virus caused. Part of that is a sign of the times information flows now more than any point in history. people have their phones giving them updates so everything becomes urgent.Ad everyone can instantly give their opinions on everything.

This isn't a power thing in fact the opposite this is a mass confusion caused by thousands giving their opinions as fact.

a reply to: IAMTAT

I will suggest that the natural evolution of our own immune systems over the course of millions of years...provides the better product.
Nevertheless, I'm open to hearing other opinions.

I post this thread as a catalyst for new information and discussion on this comparison.

So, what do you think, ATS?

Is naturally-acquired immunity better, worse or no different than any claimed immunity offered by the China Virus "vaccine(s)"?

There are also some that seem to have a natural immunity period.

I and one of my siblings seems to luckily fall into that group. I've been exposed to 3-4 people that were sick with COVID at the time I was with them and never suffered any ill effects.

My Dr likes to say that I am a tough sonuvabitch to kill...

originally posted by: carewemust
Those of us who have immunity due to Covid recovery, and shun the Vaccination, should have a rally. Giving the middle-finger to Biden and all the other idiots who want to control individual lives.

Why? if you choose to not take it then dont. Biden wants to get everyone vaccinated to show what a great job he did. Because you know Trump had nothing to do with it or so he thinks. Biden is worried his administration has not done anything yet so the covid thing is important to him. Mid terms are coming up And so far he has nothing to show for it.

If talking about the political aspect of the "efforts" I've seens a few people say that the reason the UK was originally saying wearing masks was not effective or needed was because the government did not take the threat seriously enough to look at the supply chain and by the time they did it was too late to get suitable numbers into the country.

Once they had supplies they changed tack.

No evidence for this so take it as purely anecdotal.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Serdgiam

You lost me its not about big pharma several countries as you have mentioned have developed their own vaccine for Corona. Russia, India, UK, China, Iran and Switzerland, and soon France. The rest are purchasing it from countries that have vaccines.

Now I agree with you I think they went too far there was panic and people overreacted. This lead to alot of confusion at first wear masks don't wear masks etc. But that was because of this fear the virus caused. Part of that is a sign of the times information flows now more than any point in history. people have their phones giving them updates so everything becomes urgent.Ad everyone can instantly give their opinions on everything.

This isn't a power thing in fact the opposite this is a mass confusion caused by thousands giving their opinions as fact.