Roswell the final verdict

a reply to: crayzeed
MOGUL was a compartmented high security project

It had a security rating equivalent to the Atomic weapons projects, aka Manhattan Project

Marcel, Ramey and others at Roswell would not be informed of Mogul So when Brazel shows up with the balloon debris they would not have a clue as to what if was from aside from looking like from a weather balloon

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
Despite all the back and forth on this over the years, there are still two things that cant be explained:

1) How can people, both military and civilian, who routinely witnessed weather balloons being launched from that base have mistaken a crash site they were standing in the middle of for pieces of a weather balloon?

If Irving Newton's affidavit didn't answer that for you, I don't know what answer you expect. It wasn't a weather balloon and none of them had ever seen anything like it except Irving Newton, who identified it.

2) Why on Earth would a military base issue a +*+*+ Press Release +*+*+ with something as sensational as recovery of an alien spacecraft if they weren't absolutely certain it was true?

The press release didn't say it was alien, did it?

Brazel had the junk sitting out there and mentioned it to his neighbors, who told him there was a reward for a flying saucer/disk, so he called it that and the description stuck down the line even though it was so obvious it wasn't really a "disc" the way the FBI memo describes it:

So you could also ask why the FBI memo is calling it a disc when what it's describing doesn't sound like a disc at all. It's because of the reward Brazel was trying to collect.

If I thought I saw a space ship and claimed as such and you used AI on me all it would detect was that I believed I was telling the truth. Not that I had actually seen a real flying saucer or aliens.
Now if you asked me 2 weeks later after I was told a plausible story of what I may of actually have seen, and I said 'space ship' would the AI then say I was lying if doubt had crept in?

As no doubt others have already said but I'm too lazy to read every comment.

But yeah there's a reason lie detectors aren't admissible in court...

Been so long since Roswell happened, and the story has become so contaminated over the years, I'd need the U.S government to come out and not only state it was a alien vehicle, and there were alien beings, I'd need them to show some proof also.

Sadly I'd probably still have doubts knowing how many governments are when it comes to fabricating things into truth and fact.

Last year and a half alone should make everyone doubt anything and everything coming out of any current politicians or government officials mouth, if previous form throughout history isn't enough.

I'm so tired of the same few events (Roswell, Rendleshem etc) keep getting brought up. Stuff is happening NOW, why not focus on them?

a reply to: holydarkness


What was Reported to have Happened in Roswell NM in 1947 is a MYTH . Believe if you Must , but Know Deception NEVER SLEEPS .....

Let me put the Mogul myth to bed. Yes, Mogul and it's reason were top secret and that's all. The USAF have come with half truth and half omissions. the truth was Mogul and it's payload was a top secret designation, but what they don't want to ell you is that the Mogul people by obligation had to inform any air controllers, that's civil and military, that they were launching what to them was secret but to others as a "weather balloon". This was for basic air safety.
Now that would have included Roswell army/airforce base, strictly because (and people bandy the word Rawin) the rawin array would light up roswells radar like a christmas tree.

Now at that time Roswell WAS a strategic airbase for nuclear bombers and if ANY anomalous blip were to appear on their screens coming anywhere near the base or area near it the SWHTF and jets scrambled to find out the reason for the blip. Maybe first time Mogul was launched they might have got away with it but believe me Roswell would have known about the flights. But they haven't even mentioned that and as far as I have seen no other investigator has approached the subject.

REASONS.
1.Roswell had to be informed and they would have known the day, time and place for the launch because it would have shown up on their radar.
2. Through the Rawin system they would have tracked the launch, flight and the end of flight. Why? because the would have had to vector their aircraft away from the area. Remember these are bombers carrying nuclear weapons and collision with the Mogul array would have had catastrophic results. Just that reason alone would be the reason to inform them.
3. Now because the nature of a Rawin array, Roswell would be able to track the flight from launch through the flight (for the necessity of air safety) but more importantly to the rough estimate of the "crash" site. They would have known IF the debris was a Mogul array.

Now all the USAF comes up with is Mogul/ top secret and you believe them. Roswell would have known about the flight but were probably informed they were weather balloons given their half truth that Roswell didn't know about Mogul.

NOW somebody from the airforce pull that apart and tell me I'm wrong.

a reply to: crayzeed

I agree, crazyseed.

I believe the military fueled the flames of the “Roswell” as “actually a government op” to make them look like they are in control. Then when there really ARE phenomena they can’t explain, researchers assume the government is running another Roswell-style op.

Actually, the military has no clue what UFOs are, either. But they would take credit if it furthered the myth that they were winning the Cold War.

The crash site was actually near corona, New Mexico; a hundred miles west of Roswell. But Roswell wanted the tourism. True story

a reply to: crayzeed

I'm well versed on the Roswell case:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please read again. Marcell stated the debris in the photograph was not the debris found. it was put forward to debunk the original story.

In his description, he described the lightweight debris exactly like the materials in that photograph:

Again ALL mogul flights were recovered, non were missing to explain this debris.

Full Mogul flights were recorded by the team. They had 'return to' tags attached because of the experimental equipment was used. All other flights, service, research, and general test flights, which were launched, were deemed expendable and not searched for or recovered. These flights were launched along with full Mogul arrays. Remember that the program was still experimental when it moved from NYU to Alamogordo. Charles Moore was still in the process of developing materials that could withstand the different requirements.

Little sticks like balsawood, tinfoil or foil-like material, parchment or tough paper, and rubber were the materials recovered. That's described by both Brazel and Marcel. A detailed description by Brazel in his newspaper interview on July 9 1947 described 'rubber strips, tinfoil, tough paper, scotch tape, and eyelets' were found. Those were the exact materials used for balloons and radar reflectors.

I'll ask again like I have many people and never received an answer, was it only a coincidence that those were the same materials used for balloon and reflector construction 90 miles to the south in June/July 1947?

a reply to: Ectoplasm8
In answer to your question:- At that time ANY forces personnel would have gone along with any lies their superiors would have concocted (cold war don't you know, keep it secret) and by the same token don't you think that the same people would come up with actual debris from a balloon so people could look at the photo and honestly say "yes. that is the debris from a balloon"?

Now a couple of questions for you:- Knowing that Roswell was an active group and more importantly, trusted with nuclear weapons, do you not think that the main intelligence officer (never mind any other personnel) would know what a meteorological balloon array looked like, as all Mogul was a standard balloon array with the "secret" technology tacked on?

And as per my last post:- Roswell Field radar would have had to known of the Mogul flights for air safety, to prevent collisions and to vector aircraft from danger, they were not prive to the nature of the "cargo" but the evidence from the Rawin, as I said, would light up their radar. Now in knowing that, according to Mogul papers, the Rawin was to enable the Mogul people to track, receive data AND to retrieve the debris and in knowing that Roswell, through their radar, could do exactly the same and that includes a rough vector of the landed debris.

Another thing to consider (unless you actually think that Major Marcell was stupid) why make such a fuss over what in the photo is obviously balloon debris and then to have this useless debris transported to anywhere? The whole scenario is illogical unless it's a cover up.

my thoughts regarding the tv show:

They are now disclosing/confirming which rumours were true or not, by having this "lie detector test" segment in, which according to me is pure bs. In some cases they determined if it was a lie/truth by 2 seconds of voice and facial, which isn't enough data to determine. But I get what they are doing here, and they are acknowledging Roswell to us, by playing it like this.

All the people "oooh he was telling truth!!" .. it was scripted, as if they didn't know already (pope and the FBI guy)

Mods, please move to the correct LOL forum, thanks.

originally posted by: holydarkness
There is a new 4 part series on discovery plus called Roswell the final verdict! I highly suggest you watch it!
you can use the 7 day free trial if you dont have a subscription!



now for spoilers! dont scroll down if you want to watch it first!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
dont look!
.
.
.
.
.

alright for those of you who watched or didnt!
They used the most advanced AI lie detection software in the world and proved jessie marcell and countless others were telling the truth that a spaceship had infact crashed and we recovered 4 bodies not from this planet.
this is a absolutely must watch show!

Can't find the article/link I saw earlier, but some expert in this tech said you're not going to get anything good using it it on video, especially old crappy video like most of the clicks in the show

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Newton did identify it as a weather balloon.

Although the Air Force did not find documented evidence that Gen. Ramey was directed to espouse a weather balloon in his press conference, he may have done so because he was either aware of Project MOGUL and was trying to deflect interest from it, or he readily perceived the material to be a weather balloon based on the identification from his weather officer, Irving Newton.

In a signed, sworn statement
(Atch 30) Newton related that ”. . . I walked into the General’s office where this supposed flying saucer was lying all over the floor. As soon as I saw it, I giggled and asked if that was the flying saucer . . . . I told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN target. . . .”

No, they didn't use the word alien in the original press release. But they did call it a "flying disc" which, especially at that time, was synonymous with alien spacecraft. Although there is some, little, room for interpretation my belief is that in 1947 if you said "flying disc" people heard "alien spacecraft".

Maybe it was Marcel who was after the reward. He was either the main instigator asserting it was a flying disc of alien origin, or, he was one hell of a scapegoat. While Newton was relaying his balloon explanation to Gen Ramey, he said Marcel was there trying to convince him the pink or lavender notations on some of the sticks were alien writing although, to him, they had no rhyme or reason - they were just marks.

Probably caught out by a Rancher recovering a Top Secret Balloon test so had to come up with a cover story about a UFO recovery...

So if everything debunkers say is true then why are all reports redacted and scrubbed to this day. If the redacted part was reveled and it said project mogul wouldn’t that be an easy explanation?

a reply to: crayzeed


The debris was described by multiple sources and it was all the same. Lt Col Sheridan Cavitt accompanied Marcel in the recovery and in his afidavit said:

When we got to this location we subsequently located some debris which appeared to me to resemble bamboo type square sticks one quarter to one half inch square, that were very light as well as some sort of metallic reflecting material that was also very light.

Mac Brazel, who was the discoverer the debris and began the entire incident wasn't involved with the military at all. He gave his description in the Roswell Daily Record on July 9, 1947. This was free of any UFOlogists influence 30 years later but during the actual time of the incident:

Because of his detailed description of the debris in 1947:

... came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper, and sticks.... scotch tape... eyelets

... which is obviously a balloon and radar reflector[s]. A story was created through writers of book$ 30 years later that he was accompanied by the military and coerced to follow along with their story. So he supposedly does this and says the following in the 1947 newspaper interview towards the end:

I am sure that what I found was not any weather observation balloon

How does this make sense if he was coerced by the military to follow along? That's the last thing they'd want him to say.

They need to discredit his statements somehow, so a reason is given to why he said what he did and his own recorded statement contradicts a military influence.

Further, he placed this highly unusual alien debris under some brush on June 14th and went along with his day not thinking anything about it. 3 weeks later on July 4th, he went back out to collect it because he heard there was a reward offered for finding a flying disc, something newly offered after Kenneth Arnold's story on June 24, 1947. That was his motivation, not strange debris. It went from nothing special to possibly an alien spacecraft. Apparently there was nothing unusual for 3 weeks until a reward was offered and it spiked his curiosity.

I can see you're missing a lot of information. Because of your bias, you've bought into the sensationalized tale, the story that rakes in the bucks. All the living retired military that have been interviewed by UFO authors have made the comments below. Nearly 50 years after the incident and released from any obligation by the military they might have had-

Lt Col Sheridan Cavitt said the following during his interview about the writers of these books:

I never even thought about it again until after I retired from the military when I began to be contacted by UFO researchers. Many of the things I have mentioned to these people have either been taken out of context, misrepresented, or just plain made up.

In his afidavit:

There is no information that I am withholding. I have never been threatened by the US Government or any of its subdivisions, or by any persons, not to talk about this incident is that this whole incident was no big deal and it certainly did not involve anything extraterrestrial.

Weather officer Irving Newton was interviewed by these authors as well and said this about the books:

During the ensuing years I have been interviewed by many authors, I have been quoted and misquoted. The facts remain as indicated above. I was not influenced during view, nor today, to provide anything but what I know to be true, that is, the material I saw in General Ramey’s office was the remains of a balloon and a RAWIN target.

What you and many are caught up in are the writers of Roswell UFO books and hearing the stories either directly from the books or mentioned in Roswell articles here and there. If you take the time to understand and research the incident for yourself and not through the eyes of these writers, you'll see the path of evidence through reports, technical drawings, correspondence, photographs, etc. from the time. In other words, things that are backed up by data, not just words.

I'll address your other points later.

a reply to: TexasTruth


Its not a lie if you believe it .

What I liked about the series is emphasizing that Jesse Marcel is a smart well trained person and knows what he is looking at.

originally posted by: game over man
What I liked about the series is emphasizing that Jesse Marcel is a smart well trained person and knows what he is looking at.

A smart person would not say that he found lots of little pieces of debris over a large debris field and then describe the debris as indestructible. Another smart person would immediately recognize that wasn't such a smart thing to say.

Episode #4 starts today, and #5 next Friday. In the end, you're using iffy tech on iffy old videos. Plus I've lied years ago on a lie detector test and passed. Even if some of the results assumed the person was telling the truth, most interviews were at least several decades after the event, so memories may get twisted (like in the telephone game), and some of the interviewees may BELIEVE they are telling the truth.

IMO nothing conclusive can be gained by this, the only saving grace is listening to stories from folks who may have been involved, peripherally or otherwise. It is interesting to revisit some of these recollections, as long as you don't blindly accept everything. I think it likely some of these stories may be true, but I am not 100% sold on Roswell being aliens, but think it's a decent possibility