The hard problem of consciousness

a reply to: gosseyn

Are you aware that even materialism/physicalism admits that all these experiences happen inside your skull ?

That’s not true. There is no experience without what exists outside the skull, the same world which the inside of the skull is a part.

a reply to: CitizenZero

the claim is not that there is no outside world, the claim is that what is outside is no different in nature than what is inside. We don't need to postulate the existence of a substance called matter on top of consciousness, this same matter that we then claim to be more fundamental than consciousness because its complexity is supposed to give birth to consciousness in the mainstream view.

"We are a way for the universe to know itself."

a reply to: gosseyn

But what is inside is different in nature than what is outside. It’s biology, not consciousness—and from what we know biology is exceedingly rare throughout the universe. We don’t need to postulate something called “consciousness” on top of any of it.

a reply to: gosseyn

: how can the world of matter give rise to the world of consciousness ?

Depends on whether we actually live in a world of matter or whether it is provided to us by our senses which are controlled by our consciousness.

The more we learn about the quantum universe the more we question our concept of reality.

originally posted by: CitizenZero
a reply to: gosseyn

But what is inside is different in nature than what is outside. It’s biology, not consciousness—and from what we know biology is exceedingly rare throughout the universe. We don’t need to postulate something called “consciousness” on top of any of it.

How do you know that it is different in nature ? That's just a presumption, and that's the materialist/physicalist presumption. Everything that you know about what you call matter is given to you by your senses and is experienced in your consciousness, and everything else is a presumption. Without consciousness, matter has absolutely no qualities, it's just abstract numbers.

a reply to: gosseyn

Ah, the hard problem of consciousness. We have found that some animals and mammals may possess consciousness too, like dolphins and monkeys. I recall one situation where a monkey was taught to draw, and as the monkey started to draw more, it became apparent that he may possess some form of consciousness. And humans, we seem to develop our consciousness around the age of 2, as babies don't seem to be born with consciousness (or at least lack the ability to access it).

But how or why we have consciousness, it's still a mystery. I don't believe evolution sufficiently explains how non-conscious life can develop consciousness, just as I don't believe evolution sufficiently explains how non-living elements randomly formed into life. We can make observations about the way things are with our physicalist perspective, but we are limited in understanding how and why these things happen.

OP, I like your suggestion that matter is not the fundamental substance in this universe. We need to go outside of our physicalist box in order to tackle the puzzle of consciousness. But then another problem arises; we go into the realm of speculation which isn't bound by facts and observations. So the truth is out there somewhere, and it is likely beyond the understanding of a physicalist perspective. So I have come to accept that this is something we won't find the answer to through science.

a reply to: gosseyn

Why would consciousness be a problem?

It's only a problem to people that try to label, arrange, explain and process reality, existence and the Universe through the narrow, nihilist-materialistic viewpoint of 'rational intelligence', without taking into account such very real things as intuition, Cosmic Perspective, the Universe being an intelligent being, and thus, EVERYTHING being part of a larger consciousness, and so on.

When you realize what reality REALLY is, this problem vanishes, because you realize it was never a problem to begin with.

Repeat: Form is emptiness; Emptiness is no other than form, until the parrot stops becoming one... forgetting the repetition is not the parrot stopping it was lack of mindfulness so go back to it.

The side effect of perfecting Zen? Hating language arising from contact... many people try to expatriate at that moment. Such a thing is a mistake, as then fear arises that once they start grasping the new language the same thing will occur. No knowing what to do? "The wall" occurs. Going back to the repetition of course... as the perfection wasn't as "great" as the "demon" made it out to be.

Twice liberated... is something that Rumi has yet to accomplish, he will be re-born in such a land of becoming... that people flee as a sambhogakaya or "buddha's body".

Learners on the path quick, slow and gradual... is/are what the three standard kayas are. Stopping to teach such a thing? Not something I need to do not concerned with the self/other "duality".

originally posted by: Shoujikina
a reply to: gosseyn

Why would consciousness be a problem?

It's only a problem to people that try to label, arrange, explain and process reality, existence and the Universe through the narrow, nihilist-materialistic viewpoint of 'rational intelligence', without taking into account such very real things as intuition, Cosmic Perspective, the Universe being an intelligent being, and thus, EVERYTHING being part of a larger consciousness, and so on.

When you realize what reality REALLY is, this problem vanishes, because you realize it was never a problem to begin with.

That's exactly what idealism says, that the hard problem of consciousness in only a problem under pure materialism.

Everything that we have ever known and that we will ever know is mental in nature. The mental stuff is the starting point and the ending point of everything and It will never be possible to experience anything outside of our mind.

Seven consciousnesses in the "physical" the eye has its own consciousness, separate and distinct from the ear consciousness etc. the only two closely linked and hardest to conquer in yoga is the nose and tongue consciousnesses being so linked. The eighth consciousness sits in the ten directions above below and all around.

So why is "mind" which is all of that? Difficult to tame hard to conquer? It's assumed that all of them are in use; but many have never heard having spent so much time focused on speaking or trying to get their point across... and only agree with others that have said the same thing(that they can hear) and then agree with it and get a sensation of reinforcement when that occurs; that only reinforces the inability to hear anything other than what they have already said or agree with.

Same with seeing etc.

Knowing one's range is something of a bubble of expanding and contracting those ten directions of all of those consciousnesses having tamed them having conquered them in the absolute of peace.

It takes a lot of work and I cannot say it is worth it if you seek some reward other than personal freedom or unbinding from anything that may ever occur in those attached blinded ignorant or deluded that they have ever really seen, heard, etc. other than like a magnet only being attracted to what it likes wants and desires and when it doesn't get that misery and suffering are the result countless times... until dispassion grows instead of skill in dealing with both extremes until they vanish.

Concepts is what someone said once is all that people are stuck or ensnared by.

How so? Is a question I didn't ask as their freedom from it is their responsibility not mine not yours or anyone else's they have to take to the task.

Monkey doesn't know monkey, Dog doesn't know dog or sit it knows expectation... so how do we know monkey dog and sit? Expected to know, once known? There is no monkey, dog, or sit. They just occur as we have been taught to see them... if we weren't taught to see them? Would be even know them?

Obviously not as people around the world met they were ignorant of things, even those people that think they know something nope experience something perhaps same thing? No and fortunately that is the triumph of the individual independent of all of that and yet not making the world(s) and its options open for all kinds of interpretation of how it can be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, felt and experienced.

As much "good" that people do or try to set up? There's just as much "bad" to it or in it... personally, I don't bother with either and just go about my business.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: gosseyn

What if consciousness is not in matter, but matter is in consciousness ?

What if?
Did you make any progress or is it the same as your last thread in a slightly new dress?

David Chalmers, aye? From 2020:

Integrated information, huh...

And have you made any progress in proving that anything exists outside consciousness?
And has integrated information theory made any progress beyond the wild speculation stage? Did it show what any basic sensation, like a random smell or taste or feeling, is supposed to be translated in this theory?

a reply to: gosseyn

In the Biblical scripture it says thus:

God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘ We are His offspring.’ 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imaginatio

Divine Consciousness is primary, Human Consciousness & Matter are secondary & tertiary respectively, I am convinced of that. Much research seems to point in this direction, for example The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot, or some of the works of Rupert Sheldrake.

Cheers, FITO.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Yes and there's also Hinduism and Advaita Vedanta which has been saying for thousands of years that consciousness is fundamental and everything else, "matter", is a derivative of it.

Consciousness is non-local. Your brain is like a transceiver. Your "person" is being beamed into your body from another dimension. Your brain does not generate consciousness. Your brain enables it. Hyper-realistic virtual reality is well within our reach technologically. So, there is a possibility that we are experiencing a false, hyper-realistic reality. Something like, we live inside the Matrix inside the Matrix.

Hermetic principles and teachings have always said that everything is mind.Mind was first. Mind will probably transcend space-time before matter does.

I think mind was first,and mind created matter in order to...solve the mystery of life lol,that's for us to decipher individually.

I think we have a duty to maintain the light of consciousness to make sure it continues into the future...... Elon Musk

Typical Musk gibberish...Who flipped the switch of consciousness in the first place?