Echo's Dilemna and ME...

Here I explore what the concepts means to me. Hopefully, it helps to shed some light on the topic for others exploring these areas. Reflecting on some of the ideas, and the back and forth it brings up makes me wonder if some of us woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Patience carries a lot of weight, and I feel for those who find themselves asking difficult questions with others who may not understand where they are coming from.

It's easy to take one's perspective for granted. As science and technology evolve and push the limits of man's understanding, individually we wrestle with what it means to us. This is all very subjective, the scientific method is very empirical. There comes a point where one realizes that their measurements are only as good as the tools used to measure with. I believe as we become more collectively aware of that idea, our zeal for technological progress will be tempered with the maturity required to make the most of it.

This is a gradual process and many already have that insight. It's tempting to think learning lessons in this area is an either/or proposition. I believe it's embodied more so as a practice or mindset. I believe flexibility here is important, a sense of wonder and zest for learning adds vitality to life. God willing, society as a whole practices developing a better sense of fuzzy logic.

A part of me has thought, "Eh man, why do you care? Why does it matter?"
"Idk, where I am? Pacific or Atlantic?"
"Brother, just keep swimming..."

Reflecting, looking back into what we know of the past, can gives us clues as to the potential the future may hold. It's important to realize it as a guide. One run's the risk of freezing or stumbling over what's in front of them if they look too hard behind.

Interesting times we live in, many are experiencing travail as we wrestle collectively with the challenges of the times. Limitations of all kinds, the material world and our place practicing coming to terms with the nature of our time here, are all factors that come into play when examining what's going on.

The pace of technological development continues to advance in leaps and bounds. I feel the questions one asks themselves about the nature of perception and the way we handle it are becoming more and more obvious as the level of novelty arises. Man has risen to a level of technology unrivaled in modern times. I sincerely hope that this will encourage mankind to practice the virtues required to hold on to it. I like to think that we've weathered the storm so far.

Our humanity is rich in culture, and we have inherited a wide body of myth and lore from our ancestors. Imo, myths are to society as dreams are to the individual. I find these a deep source of inspiration, and as keys for understanding. The fleeting nature of dreams in the microcosm, complemented by the timeless nature of myth in the macrocosm.

The ME is an idea, that seems like a bit of a sanity check. Individuals recollections, varying to a wide degree. However, there seems to be a consistency to that variety in many cases. Unfortunately, focusing on these differences tends to discourage exploring the topic.

Giving ourselves the benefit of the doubt provides an opportunity to focus on what this may mean as opposed to the root.

I get the impression that experiencing those sorts of affects, is meant to encourage someone grow as an individual. Synchronicities are often brought up too.

In my younger years, I often wrestled with how I felt about duality as a key for understanding a material world limited by time. I remember my grandfather calling me a dreamer, I still don't know sometimes if he was joking or serious. More likely a little of both.

My Opa used to tell me, life was kind of like a rowboat. You're out on the water. Three people are rowing, and there's a beautiful island on the horizon. The better they cooperate, the easier it is for them to get where they're going.

I believe in free will and the power of Love. There's something to be said about learning to practice putting your best foot forward as best we can. I often find myself living the dream, every day is a gift.

Throughout the sands of time, are accounts of tablets written with profound wisdom preserved throughout the ages. The Emerald Tablets in particular piqued my curiosity. I spent many nights contemplating what Hermes was alluding to. Imo, the power of integrity is a part of it. Carlos Castaneda comes to mind having written about impeccability in his books. It's a subtle thing, though there is something to it.

I lost my way, and melancholy set in as my daddy issues ate me up. The resentment that grew in my heart blinded me to the power of Love. It got so bad, I began despising the nature of time itself. It felt like being trapped in a cage of invisible bars. Try as I might, the conflict between my head and my heart, had me in a bad way.

I used to feel where there was a will, there was a way. This pushed the limits of my creativity and suggested to me that good and bad were rewarded, sooner or later. Something wasn't quite right though, the harder I tried the deeper the pain I felt. No matter what I did, it felt like I was out of tune with the world around me.

I had forgotten it's wasn't all about me. The walls closed in, as I stopped caring for myself. My thoughts, words, and deeds were at odds with each other.

I hated on the universe. Why all the curveballs all the time? I didn't want to hear it.

That was many moons ago. Since Love for me took the lead, it's been healing. I still got scars, but then who doesn't? When I started practicing reaching for better things, and holding myself to a higher standard life often has me awestruck. It's remembering what my grandfather told me, and just practicing it that has made the difference. After all, it's often not where you are going but how you get there.

Reflecting back, my moods were trying to show me something. As the contrasts in my life became sharper, the details were more pronounced. There came a point where I had to learn to let go and learn to trust in a higher power. The voice I had rejected, took the wheel and I found myself not having to think so hard. My mind eased, as my faith in life itself grew.

I never believed in myself, and it's been quite the journey. I feel people often underestimate themselves. It took being around others, my family, all those who had the patience to never stop pointing me in the right direction. The love and kindness they have shown me is a gift that doesn't stop giving.

“There is a light that shines beyond all things on earth,
beyond us all,
beyond the heavens,
beyond the highest,
the very highest heavens.
This is the light that shines in your heart.”
― Chandogya Upanishad

The greek myths often come up for me in these kinds of discussions, while looking into the ME, I feel drawn to a character I feel is often overlooked.

Thinking about the ME, brings to mind Ovid's Metamorphoses. Others have written of her too, though Ovid's version seems to be the most well known. A greek author also mentions Echo in a tale called Daphnis and Chloe. She has captured the imagination of others throughout the years, I don't think that will stop anytime soon.

My focus on the story is mostly imagining myself in Echo's shoes, her story intertwines with Narcissus, and other characters depending on how it's been passed down. I'll tell my version here, and explore how what it may mean to us. Using the greek names seem more natural, though Ovid was roman.

The way I came to know the story, is through the greek. Echo was a beautiful young lady, who lived in a forested area alongside a mountain. I picture her as a youth, in her late teens, learning from the Muse'. in particular song and dance. A social butterfly, I picture her personality as bubbly with a flair for drama. Thinking of her brings to mind the innocence of youth, and the outgoing way young adults tend to be.

Unfortunately, Echo got into some trouble. Looks like Zeus had a bit of a wandering eye, and he would get to know some of the nymphs a little too well. His wife had her suspicions that he was cheating on her, and Echo was between them. He got her to distract Hera, so he could try to hide his shame.

Hera was not amused and got wise to what was going on. She punished Echo by shutting down her speech, forcing her to only be able to repeat the briefest of sounds, and even that was limited. It's sad imagining how something like that could effect someone, especially the more creative types.

A bit tragic being resigned to express herself more strictly through gesture and expression, she carried on. There was someone who had once caught her eye, a young man most desirable. She caught her first glimpse of him while he was out hunting.

Now this kid, was no ordinary child. Narcisuss was the son of a nymph and a river god and blessed with good looks. As a baby, his mom had taken him to a blind seer. She was curious about his opinion, about what kind of life he saw in the child's future. She was hoping her son could enjoy a long life, living into old age. The seer said yes, "If he does not discover himself".

Years went by, and the seer's caution seemed often to be empty words, unfortunately, they became more apparent once Narcissus was about 16. He was really hot, and many wanted to be with him. His sense of pride was such, that he didn't entertain the idea.

As it turns out, Narcissus was out one-day hunting. Echo tailed him, and the closer she got, the more intense her passion. She yearned to talk with him, Her condition wouldn't allow it, but never the less she was ready for whatever opportunity she did have.

Unable to choose her own words, she tried nonetheless.

I have a difficult time putting their dialogue in my own words. Needless to say there was a back and forth between them, that was awkward to say the least.

By chance, the boy, separated from his faithful band of followers, had called out ‘Is anyone here?’ and ‘Here’ Echo replied.

He is astonished, and glances everywhere, and shouts in a loud voice ‘Come to me!’ She calls as he
calls. He looks back, and no one appearing behind, asks ‘Why do you run from me?’ and receives the same words as he speaks.

He stands still, and deceived by the likeness to an answering voice, says ‘Here, let us meet together.

And, never answering to another sound more gladly, Echo replies ‘Together’, and to assist her words comes out of the woods to put her arms around his neck, in longing.

He runs from her, and running cries ‘Away with these encircling hands! May I die before what’s mine is yours.

She answers, only ‘What’s mine is yours!’

ovid.lib.virginia.edu...

Rejected, Ovid has her resigned to hiding in the woods and living in lonely caves. She didn't stop loving him, and as he has her enduring sleepless nights, and a profound sense of sadness. He writes about her wasting away until only her bones and the sound of her voice remain.

Ovid goes on further and writes more about what did Narcissus.

Narcissus had rejected Echo and many other nymphs. He even found himself at odds with the other young men too. One of those who had been rejected prayed that Narcissus would have a taste of his own medicine.

A goddess Nemesis heard this prayer, and Narcissus becomes a victim of his own pride.

There was a mysterious fountain, shaded by trees. Unclouded waters, and undisturbed by animals, birds, or even the leaves from trees. Narcissus took a break there, tired of the hunt. Looking to quench his thirst, a different kind of thirst overtakes him. He sees his reflection and falls in love.

In vain, he yearns for someone he doesn't recognize. He becomes stuck there, staring at his own reflection. He doesn't understand what he sees, and try as he might, he can't make sense of it. He ends up lamenting his situation, a love that cannot be.

I'm glad I'm putting this in my own words, reading over Ovid's version Narcissus may have understood a little better then I first thought:

‘I am he. I sense it and I am not deceived by my own image. I am burning with love for myself. I move and bear the flames. What shall I do? Surely not court and be courted? Why court then? What I want I have. My riches make me poor. O I wish I could leave my own body! Strange prayer for a lover, I desire what I love to be distant from me. Now sadness takes away my strength, not much time is left for me to live, and I am cut off in the prime of youth. Nor is dying painful to me, laying down my sadness in death. I wish that him I love might live on, but now we shall die united, two in one spirit.’

Generally speaking, Narcissus ends up pining away his time by the pond. That quote has me wondering how that could happen, if he sensed his reflection was a part of him, why would he stay there? Maybe he only understood it partially, or was only looking at it in a physical sense? Then again how much do we really know at that age?

He grows weak, and life starts to leave him. Echo saw the situation, and even though she hadn't forgotten the way he had treated her, felt pity for him. As he bid farewell to his reflection, Echo told him was there.

After passing away, his funeral was being prepared. When they went to go get the body, there was none. In its place there was a flower, white petals surrounding a yellow heart. It's commonly known as a Daffodil.


Here's a link to A.S. Kline's version of Metamorphoses Book III. The links towards the middle provide a chance for someone to look for themselves how Ovid described it:
ovid.lib.virginia.edu...

I have a very romantic idea of the power of Love. I've had dreams come true, and experiences I never could have imagined. I just couldn't have the story end like that.

I confess that I have often been very selfish. Stubborn and arrogant to say the least. I've grown older but can relate to Narcissus. I look back and feel humbled.

This one is for Echo...

You give me butterflies,
Lifting me up.
When I'm feeling down,
You are always around.

You saw me one day,
At the park.
In my footsteps,
I heard you.

Alone,
Looking back,
I couldn't imagine,
Let alone realize,
True beauty,
Approaching me.

I couldn't believe it,
Your words were mine,
The tail end of a mystery,
I hurt you,
When you wanted to come together.

I'm sorry,
Forgive me,
Your sweet looks,
Cannot be captured.
Your spirit,
The sound of laughter,
Your love is true,
Your love is free,
A gift to me.

They tried taking your voice,
And breaking your heart,
It took that happening to me,
For us to have a new start.

Clip clop,
Clip clop,
The sound of boots,
Make me wish they are all yours,
Your love is whole other world,
I'm a lucky guest.

Feeling naughty,
I always look forward to coffee,
Let's sing together now,
Independent,
Together,
Flow,
Tempo,
How come when it to comes to dancing,
I'm the one trying to keep up?

Inspiring,
The song that you sing,
Lighter than a feather,
Showing me what's better.

The closer we are,
The more gentle the sound.
You remind me of joy,
Time forgot.

Still wondering where your wings are,
About the way you speak,
Reminds me of the now,
When lovers meet.

Let's take the bikes out,
and enjoy the view,
You have me dreaming,
Of another date please,
IOU

Sorry, but I do not have the patience to digest this today.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts and feelings about
Technology and how it can effect us as a whole.
I adore the story of Echo.
Have a wonderful day
S&F

a reply to: FreeFalling

Thank you, I've been reluctant to put this out there.

a reply to: butcherguy

It's all good, no need to hurry.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml
I enjoyed your posts, reminds me how much influence ancient Greek has to this day, in languages.

There comes a point where one realizes that their measurements are only as good as the tools used to measure with.

Wer misst, misst Mist
"The one who measures, measures crap"

It means that the measurement is always subject to measurement error because you influence the measurement with it. Analogy would be the behavior of someone testing out the opinion of someone else about the topic.

The tonage, posture, facial expression, wording of the question will influence. Not everyone but a fair portion and we don't even recognize it when it happens. It's like asking loaded questions, just that the communication of the bias is non verbal.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Thank you, I hadn't heard of that saying before.

I can speak Spanish, but haven't learned much German. I'd like to visit Germany. Having been to Colombia, made learning Spanish easier.

I find that saying quite deep, thinking about that.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml
The German language is full of sayings, some dumb, some true, some false, some attrociously true and to the point that PC crowd will just not know if to implode or explode.

Spanish is on my list but I could not decide yet if it's going to be French, Italian or Spanish. I am torn, with Italian roots it would be obvious to learn Italian but then I know that learning Spanish, I can use it as a jumping board for Italian and other languages.

But French is so neat also, but very unique. So I instead started to learn how to read old German in the meantime. The very old German, Sütterlin that later has been modified to fit the latin letters.

It's useless to write but then I unlock lot's of old books that I can read. Notebooks about herbs, gardening and other remedies, from my grand grand mother on the German side and other books I own but can not read. I could decipher some but now I start to read fluid.

To get back to topic, reason being in the last year I've been learning a lot about herbs and natural ways, getting away from technology as I discovered that the old ways are often better. There's so much generation-to-generation knowledge that was lost in the last decades, is my opinion.

This is by far my favorite original thread in a long, long time.

I will reread this many times over. Readily.

Thank you for sharing your this, and the very way you deftly describe your intuition and folly.

I heartily applaud this thread and cannot thank you enough for sharing these thoughts of yours on what it means to be human.

We need more heartfelt pieces such as this.

Not just here.

This is splendid and bittersweet too.

Thank you! Impeccable OP!

have a look @ www.greekmythology.com...

You will be amazed how much you will recognize from it, everywhere. Many terms we use today are founded in the name of some person.

Like Sisyphos. Pure dude had to roll up a stone to a mountain and each time he almost made it, the stone rolls back down. For eternity. That's "sisyphos-work". Well he betrayed Zeus, should have known that after the strike there comes the thunder.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Not to take anything away from it, gave you s&f just for fun,
Echo loved her own voice and after everything it was all that was left of her in form of a natural phenomenon, forever repeating the last word someone else spoke.
And as flower the Narcissus has a paralysing poison isn't that cool?

a reply to: slatesteam

Me stuff is sensitive, it was tough trying to find the right words.

I got long-winded trying to express my perspective, I appreciate the patience. I had been thinking about this for a long time. I didn't think the poem would make sense, without hearing about how it relates to life, for me personally and at large per se.

All the feedback is encouraging, it helps inspire me to practice my writing.

Thank-you

a reply to: Peeple

Hi Peeple,

That is pretty cool.

I find the greek myths and mythology in general fascinating. Different stories have mentioned Echo, in various roles. Families hand down their spin on it too. It would be cool to hear someone with a greek background's perspective for example. Comparing mythology, there often appears to be reoccurring themes playing out at different scales.

I believe the myths hold clues to a deeper understanding of ourselves. I have a peculiar way of going about things, I know walls of text can be challenging to read in one go.

I like reflecting on mythology, often revisting them from time to time encourages greater insight. I find it helps expand one's vision, as concepts start to come to life. Lots to explore.

That one thing you gotta love about ancient Greek Mythology, and how human like they are. Zeus an his infidelity, an Hera an her constant envy, along with the other gods. Really does sound like a soap opera about a dysfunctional family(Egytian gets even more dysfunctional in one story.)

According to Plato, no matter how wrong or unjust the God's were to mortals or amongst themselves, they are never wrong. I think what he meant by it, is that no matter how hard man tries or breaks rules, nature or the world would always win. Like the blind Goddess Nemesis an Narciucus.

The way that their gods would fight like petty mortals, with superpowers, being their explanations of the natural world does make it more relatable.

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
To get back to topic, reason being in the last year I've been learning a lot about herbs and natural ways, getting away from technology as I discovered that the old ways are often better. There's so much generation-to-generation knowledge that was lost in the last decades, is my opinion.

I feel much the same way. The older I get, the more often I feel that the older generations aren't much different than we are today. When I catch glimpses of what life may have been like for them, often pause in wonder. I don't got to look that far though, inspiration is often to be found in the most unlikely of places.

I had talked about some of the ideas in this thread, with some of our youth. They encouraged me to put this out there.

A turning point in my reluctance was when someone sent me a link to some children competing in something called the impossible challenge. These kids did some math like nobody's business. I figured if they can do that, I can do this.