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The Bible case on abortion

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posted on Apr, 16 2021 @ 09:21 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI



BUT the woman has the option of refusing him and taking the money instead (Exodus ch22 vv16-17). Her own choice is not forced at all. It's all there in the text, which these people do not read.


I was citing Deuteronomy 22, which says:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

30A man is not to marry his father’s wife; he must not dishonor his father’s bed.



You're citing Exodus 22. However, it still is not the girl's choice. This is about requited love and star crossed lovers.


716 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.


It was NEVER the girl's choice.


edit on 16-4-2021 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 02:00 AM
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originally posted by: Sookiechacha
Right. The old "magic water" excuse!

First of all, the mediaeval Catholic Church was never going to allow the Bible to give the recipe for an abortion.

And I see that you are using the old "I can't find what I want in the Bible, so I will pretend somebody took it out" excuse.
Apart from the fact the the mediaeval church was not conducting modern campaigns about modern issues, the major fault in that statement is that the mediaeval catholic church DID NOT WRITE the Old Testament. It was written in Hebrew, as you probably know, by the ancestors of the Jews, and the mediaeval Jews had their own manuscripts to preserve the tradition. Do Jewish Bibles talk about poisonous herbs, or do they support the "magic water" explanation?

The chapter does not even specify that the woman is pregnant. The timing of the event is that an accusation has been made. Your "miscarry" in that verse is tendentious and not a standard translation. The literal wording is "her thigh fall away". The Jerusalem Bible offers "her sexual organs shrivel up".

And, I must repeat, the passage assumes the possibility that nothing will happen, meaning the woman has passed the test and the accusing man is assumed to be at fault- "bears the iniquity"(whatever penalty might be implied by that). If forced abortion was the object of the exercise, then that could hardly be allowed to happen. I assume "dust from the gorund", because that is what the text actually says.


edit on 17-4-2021 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 05:23 AM
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World religions always included Child Sacrifice, some through fire, some through draining the blood then burning the body. In this case it is modern religion of Science where they sacrifice children from the womb the matrix into this world.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 05:43 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn
Very true, and in addition there is a more direct sacrifice.
In effect, unborn children are being sacrificed on the altar of the parental "It's my life, my body, and I can do what I like with it", which is the worship of the individual self.
That is the real reason why the defenders of abortion get so emotionally hostile to the critics of abortion. "I am the central figure in my own life" is the most important religious belief that they hold.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 06:26 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

It's also antithetical to the idea of Salvation in Christ which is supposed to be the death of self to follow Christ - a scary thought to someone for whom self is all and the important thing on the pedestal of worship.


edit on 17-4-2021 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: visitedbythem

I think you are referring to the infant burial jars.

Infant mortality was very common, as you can imagine. Babies were greatly respected, and were not readily dismissed, even in death.

A common practice of abortion would never have need taken lightly, even among those that worshiped idols. I don't think they would give a dead child in offering to their idol Gods. I don't think a dead child presented as an offering, would be called a sacrifice.

I am not saying it didn't happen, I just don't think it would be something that would be accepted or venerated.

But I could be wrong.
edit on 17-4-2021 by NightSkyeB4Dawn because: Addendum



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Fine. Let's assume that nobody removed an actual recipe for abortion from the Bible, and that it is truly all about "magic water' and God's will. The ritual still results in a naughty lady being forced into a biblically sanctioned abortion of an "ungodly child".

The Biblical God had no problem eliminating the "ungodly unborn" through either abortion or killing pregnant women.



edit on 17-4-2021 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: ntech




But the thing to remember here is the 10 commandments. Thou shall not kill/murder. Are you not murdering the unborn when they are aborted?


Therein lies the big question. Many of us don't think a week or two old group of cells is human life.

LABTECH767




There are at least FIFTY FIVE MILLION CHILDREN murdered every year in abortions and that is only an estimate and probably a conservative one at that.


With as many reasons THAT WE CAN'T JUDGE.

We are told very clearly not to add manmade rues to burden people, I don't know if it is right or wrong to abort (unbuilt) human cells BEFORE they have a brain and heart but I do know anything not specifically addressed in scripture is not for us to judge nor add.
God has ordered many things down to killing children and animals that seem to us innocent in scripture but we don't know everything about life nor why God does things.
Many people tell a teen who is pregnant you need to not abort but do they step forward and offer more? No. Most just talk they don't have their homes filled with unwanted kids.

In the end if the scriptures does not say each person has to make their own decision and just as Christians who still attended feasts to eat what was sacrificed to idols some may be accountable and some not.
It is not the place of Christians to judge others.

Revelation 22:18
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Isaiah 29:13
Therefore the Lord said: "These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men.

Matthew 23:4
They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:06 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
World religions always included Child Sacrifice, some through fire, some through draining the blood then burning the body. In this case it is modern religion of Science where they sacrifice children from the womb the matrix into this world.


I have to agree with you especially now where the laws say right up until birth.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI




That is the real reason why the defenders of abortion get so emotionally hostile to the critics of abortion. "I am the central figure in my own life" is the most important religious belief that they hold.


That does sound very judgmental. You lumped every person and situation into one basket.

There are people who raised their child in such a way that the child grew into a monster and killed others, everyone around them knowing that person should have had an abortion both because of metal illness and bad genes and the knowledge that the child would be abused for as many years as they lived with the parent and it happens time and time again. Have you witnessed what happens to children in homes like that?

I know someone who would have raised a child this way but aborted and I thank God for that decision the only good thing she ever did.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy

And how exactly did the ancient Hebrews know about a "week or two old clump of human cells"?

Btw, as far as humanity is concerned in those cells, they have a genetic structure distinct from your own. They are verifiably not yours. If you gave a sample of that DNA to someone, they would not be able to tell you that it's "not life" but they would be able to tell you it's 100% human.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:26 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy
It has been said that "hard cases make bad law", and you are deliberately making your law out of hard cases.
My judgemental comments were directed at those promoting the theoretical "right" to have abortions in general. Will you deny that "it is my body, I decide what happens to it" is the standard argument? Is there not an emotional reaction against attempts to restrict that right?



edit on 17-4-2021 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:29 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko




And how exactly did the ancient Hebrews know about a "week or two old clump of human cells"?

Never said they did in fact I said the matter was not addressed.




If you gave a sample of that DNA to someone, they would not be able to tell you that it's "not life" but they would be able to tell you it's 100% human.


Not sure what you are saying the same is true of cells my hair and skin and nails. They would be CELLS yes even the ones I shed are alive but not a person.

I am not going to say your beliefs are wrong it is between you and god.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:31 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SeaWorthy
It has been said that "hard cases make bad law", and you are deliberately making your law out of hard cases.
My judgemental comments were directed at those promoting the theoretical "right" to have abortions in general. Will you deny that "it is my body, I decide what happens to it" is the standard argument? Is there not an emotional reaction against attempts to restrict that right?



You are not talking about gods laws but mans laws.
The argument "my body my right" is used in court because how can you ague each individual case?
Biblically I don't see we can argue one way or another unless you actually DID see each individual case.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy
I never intended to take the topic down to the level of individual cases.
My conclusion in the OP was about what God thought of the existence of abortion as a social phenomenon.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 12:59 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SeaWorthy
I never intended to take the topic down to the level of individual cases.
My conclusion in the OP was about what God thought of the existence of abortion as a social phenomenon.



Yes I am aware and as you are a very clearly educated and knowledgeable bible scholar I always enjoy your threads.



posted on Apr, 17 2021 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy

Your cells have your distinct genetic code though. If I take your skin, hair, kidney, et al, cells, they will all have the same DNA strands - yours. But if I take DNA from a fetus, it will have a genetic code unique from either parent, including the one of the mother from whose womb it is taken. That defeats your skin cell argument.

I could mix that DNA sample up with yours and the scientist could tell it was not you and could not tell it was not from a "person" as you put it any more than the same scientist could tell your DNA comes from a "person" as you put it. Furthermore, when you travel down the route of attempting to assign personhood based on cell count, you run into the problem of defining when life does occur. At what magic point does life start to happen? For all too many, it isn't until the child leaves the womb, but then, if that's the case, how is the premie in the NICU any different from the child who is at the same stage of development who was not premature?

They have all the same developmental features. The only difference is where they happen to be. And according to some, one is alive while the other is still just a "clump of cells". It would definitely be murder to kill one, but if the mother decides the other is an inconvenience in her life, she can have it killed with no legal repercussion at all.

So to start with the idea that cells are not alive and human leads down that path. Where do you draw the line and decide there is life to protect? And what if you get it wrong?



posted on Apr, 18 2021 @ 05:57 AM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy

soon to be after birth as well.



posted on Apr, 18 2021 @ 08:05 AM
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originally posted by: SeaWorthy

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
World religions always included Child Sacrifice, some through fire, some through draining the blood then burning the body. In this case it is modern religion of Science where they sacrifice children from the womb the matrix into this world.


I have to agree with you especially now where the laws say right up until birth.


The Torah has instruction for cutting off the limbs and breaking the bones of a fetus still in the womb or birth canal, in order to save the life of the woman in labor.


-First, the Mishna says that if the life of a pregnant mother is in danger, abortion
is required, because the baby becomes a pursuer:
If a woman is in [life-threatening] labor, one [must] cut up the child in her womb
and bring it out limb by limb, because her life comes before the life of [the child].
But if the greater part [of the child] has come out, one may not touch it, for one
may not sacrifice one person's life for another person’s life. [Oholot 7:6]
Nevertheless, again, one must first try to save the mother by maiming the fetus,
such as by amputating a limb.
-Second, smothering a child so his crying doesn’t reveal the presence of a group
pursued by murderers is permitted. This happened during the Holocaust and in
Israel.


Page 5 images.shulcloud.com...



posted on Apr, 18 2021 @ 09:46 AM
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a reply to: Sookiechacha

Which part of the Pentateuch is that in again? If you don't have chapter and verse, then it's part of traditional Jewish teaching which is sometimes called Torah along with the original books of the Christian Bible and not actually part of the Bible itself and therefore not a discussion on what Christians believe when it comes to abortion.

However, standing behind the idea that such a thing can be done to save the life of one, is a very narrow post to excuse the widespread practice of abortion merely for the convenience of a woman who does not wish to be pregnant at all which is what the vast majority of abortions are, especially when so many of them could have been prevented by avoiding the sin of sex out of wedlock.

**EDIT**

I see Oholot. That's no book of the Christian Bible that I know of. Sure some of the prophets have strange names, but there's no Oholot that I'm aware of. So this is all traditional Jewish teaching.

edit on 18-4-2021 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)




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