Forced, or Coerced Vaccines/Passports Are They Illegal or Legal? – US Federal Code of Regulations

originally posted by: Realtruth

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Realtruth

One would have to consider those "rights" carefully, and where they may end when it comes to the rights of others. What some may consider a right, others may consider a privilege.

Completely agree.

I believe this type of issue will make it all the way to the Supreme Court, if it's going to be weight and measured properly. Being able to discern rights, privileges and infringements are a double-edged sword these days.

Only time will tell.

What if I don't want to be exposed to people who have the FLU. Can I demand that everyone in America get a Flu shot to protect me?

a reply to: Phage

Let's say I do nothing and the risk of damage is 80%. Let's say I board up everything and the risk is damage is 50%. Doing nothing results in an increased risk over doing something. Not wearing a mask results in an increased risk over not wearing a mask.

And if the hurricane veers off in another direction, you've done nothing to decrease your risk, because the hurricane never posed a risk. You didn't know that, but it is what it is regardless of whether you knew it or not.

Likewise, doing nothing does not increase your risk, because there was no risk to begin with.

And you don't know if you are or not. So wearing a mask is the only way to know that you are not putting others at increased risk (in comparison to not wearing a mask). You are gambling that you are not infected and it is others who must accept the results of that gamble. You don't have a "right" to do that.

First, don't assume that I do not wear a mask. I do. But more because I think it's cruel and irresponsible to mandate masks and put the enforcement on the people out there just trying to earn a living, putting them in harm's way when they try to enforce it. People who don't have the luxury of "staying home and staying safe." People who don't have the luxury of working from home. People who don't freaking make nearly enough money for the craptastic position they've been put in.

I'm sure you've seen the assaults on the news of people getting violent when expected to wear a mask. It hit home for us.
My daughter-in-law was damn near assaulted when she refused service to a man who refused to wear a mask. Do you give a rats' patootie about the danger these mask mandates are putting her in? And countless other people?

I'm looking at the big picture. The one that is literally creating risks, actually harming people, and directly putting them in harm's way and killing them.

a reply to: Boadicea

First, don't assume that I do not wear a mask. I do.

I know you do. You've said so previously. You're a law abiding citizen.

But more because I think it's cruel and irresponsible to mandate masks and put the en...

I know that you don't agree/understand that it reduces the risk of spreading infection as opposed to not wearing a mask.

It's a piece of cloth. Some people, a very few, have a legitimate reason to not wear a mask. Far more think of not wearing a mask as some sort of stupid political statement. It comes across more as an adolescent declaration, " I don't want to wear a mask and you can't make me!"

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Realtruth

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Realtruth

One would have to consider those "rights" carefully, and where they may end when it comes to the rights of others. What some may consider a right, others may consider a privilege.

Completely agree.

I believe this type of issue will make it all the way to the Supreme Court, if it's going to be weight and measured properly. Being able to discern rights, privileges and infringements are a double-edged sword these days.

Only time will tell.

What if I don't want to be exposed to people who have the FLU. Can I demand that everyone in America get a Flu shot to protect me?

We're all going to need a lot of different passports.

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: Boadicea

If a person is infectious...even while wearing a mask, they can still infect others.

Yes, they can. We may minimize the risk for others, but we cannot eliminate that risk.

More important, wearing a mask while infected and infectious necessarily increases the viral load for that person, because they re-inhale the very toxins their body is trying to expel. It actually increases the risk of severity of symptoms and complications.

So we're right back to putting people in harm's way to protect others.

a reply to: Boadicea

More important, wearing a mask while infected and infectious necessarily increases the viral load for that person,

That is nonsense, if you are infected the small amount of viral particles you may receive from your mask is utterly insignificant compared the number of viral particles already in your body and reproducing there.

a reply to: Boadicea

My wife is not infectious but has difficulty breathing with the mask on.
Once she became dizzy and almost fell at Target.
Had I not caught her...she could've severely injured herself.

a reply to: Phage

I know that you don't agree/understand that it reduces the risk of spreading infection as opposed to not wearing a mask.

Of course I understand that it reduces risk and spread. That's just not all I understand. I also understand that we could have done the vast majority of what we did on a voluntary basis, and we could have educated and encouraged and helped facilitate best practices, letting people consider the options and make the best decisions for themselves according to their needs and circumstances. I also understand that there are disadvantages as well as advantages, negatives as well as positives, risks as well as rewards.

It's a piece of cloth. Some people, a very few, have a legitimate reason to not wear a mask. Far more think of not wearing a mask as some sort of stupid political statement. It comes across more as an adolescent declaration, " I don't want to wear a mask and you can't make me!"

Yes, there are. Like the jackass that threatened my daughter-in-law. In a private business that has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason anyway! I won't make any excuses for them. There are no excuses for them.

But that is their right. And it should have been respected. And it should have been understood that mask mandates were going to bring out the ugly in people so inclined.

I would also bet you dollars to donuts that while some people are just not going to wear a mask no matter what, many of the people refusing to do so by mandate would have gladly done so by choice -- if it had been a choice. For many, it is a moral and principled decision in defense and protection of our rights. Not the jackasses, but for others. And I respect that.

But I blame and condemn the critters that put us all in this position.

a reply to: Phage

So far it is an experimental treatment. I would guess that laws may be different for such and that volunteer subjects must give informed consent.

a reply to: Boadicea

And it should have been respected.

Some behaviors deserve no respect.

many of the people refusing to do so by mandate would have gladly done so by choice -- if it had been a choice.

Like I said, adolescent response.

a reply to: pteridine

So far it is an experimental treatment.

Clinical trials were completed. Many thousands of people took part in those trials.

At what point, in your mind, is it no longer experimental?

a reply to: Phage

That is nonsense, if you are infected the small amount of viral particles you may receive from your mask is utterly insignificant compared the number of viral particles already in your body and reproducing there.

Oh no. No no no no no.

Your entire premise is that without that mask, a mere fraction of that same "small amount of viral particles" is soooooooooooo dangerous to anyone exposed -- even for a nanosecond -- that we must wear a mask! Must! Must! Must!!!

Too late to dismiss the accumulated particles as insignificant for the mask wearer. Nope. Not gonna happen. Increased particles mean increased replication and therefore increased viral load leading to increased severity of symptoms and complications.

There's all kinds of reading material out there. Check out this NHS guide to propaganda.
link

a reply to: Boadicea

Your entire premise is that without that mask, a mere fraction of that same "small amount of viral particles" is soooooooooooo dangerous to anyone exposed

Not so good on biology and how a virus works? Here's a brief primer.

To become infected, it takes something referred to as an "infectious dose". This is the amount of viral material required to begin and maintain reproduction in the human body. Once that reproduction starts, its rate increases until the immune system begins to eventually produce antibodies (this is the mechanism by which a vaccine works, the immune system is "ready" for the virus before it actually becomes infected so fighting the infection begins sooner). By this time there are billions of viral particles present (assuming no vaccination or natural immunity). Far, far more than the infectious dose. Some of them are shed in large enough quantities to produce an infectious dose for others who are not already infected. This is how a viral infection is spread to others.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Boadicea

Some behaviors deserve no respect.

Rights always deserve respect.

Like I said, adolescent response.

Not necessarily. It depends on how it's done. It's perfectly reasonable and possible to tell yourself, "First, do no harm... but I'm not doing that. I'll find other ways to conduct my business and live my life."

I've made plenty of changes to my normal routines and practices in order to absolutely minimize the amount of time I have to wear a mask. I have to because I can only wear it for a very short amount of time before bad things happen. We have not eaten in a restaurant since Covid. No entertainment venues of any kind. We have only gotten take-out a few times. I make use of curbside pickup and delivery as much as possible. I shop online more. We've only socialized with family and neighbors since Covid started. And so on and so forth.

But if places offered designated mask-free hours/days, I would make use of it. I'd have list and go as quickly as possible and take my usual precautions and be happy to have the choice.

I've actually felt kinda bad sometimes because I've shopped the same stores for decades and they know me, and many were worried about me when they didn't see me for months. It felt kinda good though that they were happy to see me again!

My reasons were a combination of factors --

a reply to: Boadicea

Rights always deserve respect.

Not all behaviors do. Yes, you have a right to be an ass but no right to increase risk to others by not wearing a mask.

a reply to: Phage

And none of this disputes what I said.

By wearing a mask, an infectious person necessarily re-inhales virus cells previously expelled, those viral cells replicate and reproduce, thus increasing their viral load. And that means the many many cells expelled during the entire time wearing the mask.

It's significant both ways.

a reply to: Realtruth

Are you saying if some business or entity denies you service because you haven't been vaccinated, you can sue them for discrimination? That would be great!

a reply to: Boadicea

By wearing a mask, an infectious person necessarily re-inhales virus cells previously expelled, those viral cells replicate and reproduce, thus increasing their viral load.

Not by any amount that means anything at all.

Viral load, also known as viral burden, viral titre or viral titer, is a numerical expression of the quantity of virus in a given volume of fluid, including biological and environmental specimens.

en.wikipedia.org...

The amount of one's own virus particles received from the mask of the person infected will not increase viral load to any significant degree. What you are saying is that a drop of sewage will make a difference in a toilet full of diarrhea.

a reply to: carewemust

Are you saying if some business or entity denies you service because you haven't been vaccinated, you can sue them for discrimination? That would be great!

No. Not if they refuse service to everyone who is not vaccinated.

Just as they can refuse to serve you if you don't wear shoes or a shirt, as long as they don't pick and choose to whom that applies.