“We Hate Religion, just as much as you do…” Wiat…What lol

a reply to: Joecroft

Discussing religion on ATS is like discussing UFO's on a Mennonite Forum....

a reply to: MykeNukem
ATS nowadays has many more posts on religion than on UFO's.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: MykeNukem
ATS nowadays has many more posts on religion than on UFO's.

Yes, I've noticed.

I actually like your threads sometimes, you have some great insights.

My point still stands though.

Contention....

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Originally posted by MidnightHawk
I was trying to figure out what you meant but clicked on the link in your OP and saw a poster saying they didn't believe in organized religion. Which is understandable. Nevertheless the Bible shows that Christianity is an organized religion. It has structure and organization just as much as did the Isarelites when they were God's people.

Thanks…

At least you get the fact that Christianity is an organized religion.


- JC

a reply to: pianopraze

Originally posted by pianopraze
When you codify a religion and create Dogmas you are creating barriers.

Right…but…

All Christian denominations have their own specific tenets, doctrines and beliefs which become Dogmas from another perspective…

For example…a “Jehovah's Witness” will disagree with an “Evangelical Christians” position on a particular doctrine….From both of their perspectives, the other holds a Dogmatic teaching that they disagree with…

My point is, that all these different Christian denominations “Codify”, or have a list of their own specific beliefs… (which is really what a Religion is) and where there are differences…barriers will automatically be created between them…

Originally posted by pianopraze
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. Not churches or dogma.

Relationship with Jesus.

Yes, on the whole a Relationship with Jesus is a huge belief that is shared among the different Christian Denominations…But every Christian denomination has it’s own church, and it’s own set specific beliefs…

Originally posted by pianopraze
So many Christians like myself shun organized religious institutions and view their religious experience as a relationship with God.

When you say you “Shun organized religious institutions”…do you mean Christian ones…?

And if so why…?

Surely people from those other Christian institutions or denominations could still go to Church and be part of an “Organised Religion” and still have a relationship with God all the same…right…?

- JC

a reply to: benrl

Originally posted by benrl
in my opinion at least. The point they are trying to make, is in the Christian Faith, God cares only about the individual and his relationship with them, not a building, not a denomination.

But each Christian has to choose which denomination is the correct one…so all Christians end up in one denomination or another anyway…

If it was only about an individual, and his relationship with God, then we could say that Christianity isn’t even a Religion at all…but that’s just not the case…

All Christians, whether they go to church or not, and irrespective of what denomination they belong to…All have extra beliefs on top of that relationship with God…which includes various other Tenets, Doctrines and beliefs…

- JC

Well, compared to Judaism, Jesus would of been quite a rebel, with claiming to be god an what not, given the setting of the stories. Basically above their said 1500+ year laws, forgiving sins an unholy punishments, an claiming to be the son.

Kind of like if an idiot said ew, "they want a relationship with a dude god", or poking men with metal objects , hearing them scream, an having their DNA( see where this is going) is gay infront of a bunch zealous Levtites.

Or worshipping a tilted eye, with no woman for miles.

It would be downright blasphemous(childish is more like it) worth a few thousand eternities in the deep south.

a reply to: Joecroft

You

But each Christian has to choose which denomination is the correct one…so all Christians end up in one denomination or another anyway…

Ok?

The US military all work ideally in defense of the USA. Different skills for the same purpose.

The same with charities. One might work on feeding the poor. Another my work on homes and disaster relief.

Because there are different denominations with different spiritual gifts and ways doesn’t really matter much

You even see it at church. One person thinks service is important, and thinks setting up and cleaning up are important. Another person believes hospital and greeting is important. But realistically, a healthy church needs people with both spiritual gifts. With people with many different spiritual gifts.

If it was only about an individual, and his relationship with God, then we could say that Christianity isn’t even a Religion at all…but that’s just not the case…

Bet, yet. There are many people with various spiritual gifts. And varying degree of spirituality. People want to claim there are different paths to God? But then use there are different denominations to damn the church?

All Christians, whether they go to church or not, and irrespective of what denomination they belong to…All have extra beliefs on top of that relationship with God…which includes various other Tenets, Doctrines and beliefs…

Or do they just have different paths? Based on having different spiritual gifts and varying degrees of spirituality.

a reply to: neutronflux

Originally posted by neutronflux
Ok?

The US military all work ideally in defense of the USA. Different skills for the same purpose.

The same with charities. One might work on feeding the poor. Another my work on homes and disaster relief.

Because there are different denominations with different spiritual gifts and ways doesn’t really matter much

But It’s not the spiritual gifts, that are making them different…It’s the different denominational beliefs, i.e. the Religious aspects, that are making them different…

The different spiritual gifts are what different denominations practice, but even that can be different, depending on the denomination that a person belongs too…see further down in this reply…

In regards to charities they’re united in their goal to help people… different denominations of Charities don’t exist etc….Same thing applies to the US Military.

Now yes there are different types of charities, and different types of Military units that specialise in different areas of expertise, but they don’t all hold different ideals or overall goals etc …And by that I mean the organisations itself, not the individuals within it… They all have a particular Code of Ethics and/or practices and ideals/goals that they agree on. Those goals are universally about helping people and protecting people…

Anyway, you have to think about the context in which I’m making those statements…The poster I was responding to was stating that believers make those types of statements (the ones is my Op) because, as he stated… “The point they are trying to make, is in the Christian Faith, God cares only about the individual and his relationship with them, not a building, not a denomination.”

The point of my reply in context…is that it’s not just about that one thing i.e. a relationship with God…because there are other beliefs, and aspects attached to it…such as the differing interpretations of those beliefs, and the various denominations that it creates…

Originally posted by neutronflux
You even see it at church. One person thinks service is important, and thinks setting up and cleaning up are important. Another person believes hospital and greeting is important. But realistically, a healthy church needs people with both spiritual gifts. With people with many different spiritual gifts.

Some Christians believe healings are a thing of the past…while others believe that speaking in tongues no longer exists and that it was only meant for the Apostles during the time of Pentecost…

In short, differing denominational beliefs will affect the spiritual gifts that some people will practice…

Originally posted by neutronflux
Bet, yet. There are many people with various spiritual gifts. And varying degree of spirituality. People want to claim there are different paths to God? But then use there are different denominations to damn the church?

Well, someone making the statement “organised Religion is evil”, is not only attacking other Religions, but is also attacking other Christian denominations, that are part of said Religion…

Also, different Christian denominations, claim their path or doctrines are the true way to God; they both attack each other really, while claiming that it’s only about a Relationship with God and has nothing to do with “a Religion”…but then forget to mention that you also need to believe in X,Y and Z Doctrines, of their particular denomination.

Originally posted by neutronflux
Or do they just have different paths? Based on having different spiritual gifts and varying degrees of spirituality.

Well, beliefs to some extent, also shape your path…

But here you’re talking about the Spiritual gifts that people practice, who are already in a particular denomination of Christianity…

Different spiritual gifts don’t dictate which denominational Christian belief you should belong too…That choice is already present, assuming you’re a Christian and are reading the Bible etc…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

You

Different spiritual gifts don’t dictate which denominational Christian belief you should belong too…That choice is already present, assuming you’re a Christian and are reading the Bible etc…

In the US. Your free to choose your own path. What denomination you want to pursue. Or your path might be starting your own denomination. Or not choosing a god. Or not choosing any god.

Shrugs.

a reply to: neutronflux

Originally posted by Joecroft
Different spiritual gifts don’t dictate which denominational Christian belief you should belong too…That choice is already present, assuming you’re a Christian and are reading the Bible etc…

Originally posted by neutronflux
In the US. Your free to choose your own path. What denomination you want to pursue. Or your path might be starting your own denomination. Or not choosing a god. Or not choosing any god.

Shrugs.

But people don’t really choose, as such, which denomination they belong to; they are either born into one…or they have to try to decide which one to believe in or which one is the more correct etc…

It’s not the same as choosing whether to have Cheese Cake or Ice Cream…

Certain Freedoms do exist though…I’m certainly not denying that!

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

You

But people don’t really choose, as such, which denomination they belong to; they are either born into one…or they have to try to decide which one to believe in or which one is the more correct etc…

Now a strawman argument.

Really. Then why the decline in church if people are “forced” to go.

So. No. People in the USA quiet readily choose what they believe once they are on their own. And non-denominational church are actually grow. Or if they believe at all.

Eight Reasons People Are Leaving Denominational Churches for Non-denominational Churches

churchanswers.com...

Funny how you want to stereotype people.

Happy Easter.

a reply to: Joecroft

IfI want something formal, catholic mass. Though it’s getting harder to respect the Catholic Church as a whole.

Sort of formal, Methodist.

Good cooking, Baptists. Not that I have ever been served a bad meal at any church.

Freestyle, non-denominational.

a reply to: neutronflux

Originally posted by neutronflux
In the US. Your free to choose your own path. What denomination you want to pursue. Or your path might be starting your own denomination. Or not choosing a god. Or not choosing any god.

Shrugs.

Part of your post above is around the topic of people choosing their denomination etc…

Originally posted by Joecroft
But people don’t really choose, as such, which denomination they belong to; they are either born into one…or they have to try to decide which one to believe in or which one is the more correct etc…

My Reply to it above…was addressing that specific choice…i.e. someone choosing their specific denomination…

Originally posted by neutronflux
Now a Strawman argument.

All I was saying in that post is that although choices exist…i.e. there are options available etc…Some were born into it, and therefore it wasn’t really a choice per se…And additionally, some may only “choose” to stick with it because of practical family considerations…

My other main point, was that choosing a particular denomination is difficult; it’s not like making a regular everyday choice…because one has to weigh up various doctrines, study, research and carefully consider a number of views and perspectives etc…

A good example is imagine you are taking a Maths test and it’s a multiple choice test…Now yes you have choices, but if you don’t have much knowledge in maths, then your “choices” become more difficult…

Now there are over 10,000 denominations of Christianity, with a myriad of doctrines and theologies that one has to consider… All I’ was pointing out, is that the choice is difficult…

Where’s the Strawman in that…?

Originally posted by neutronflux
Really. Then why the decline in the “church” if people are forced to go…

This is a Strawman argument though…because I never said anything about people being,” forced” to go to church…

Anyway, it doesn’t make much sense because if people are forced to go, then there shouldn't be any decline at all lol…

Seriously though, this is all digressing away from the topic in my Op, which is about why Christians make those types of statements…I don’t even know where you’re heading with that type of question…

I mean, why do certain stock markets rise and fall, what are the causes of certain types of diseases…is it all down to a lack of vitamin C, or does it all come down to not having ate much fish in their diet, or a combination of both etc…

Sometimes there are just way too many factors and potential knock on effects from numerous things, to be able to pin point an exact reason or cause for something happening…The best one can do, is to use some informed speculation, at best…

I could only speculate as to why there has been a decline in the Church…but like I said, I don’t know where you are going with this question or what point you are trying to make…

Originally posted by neutronflux
So.No. People in the USA quiet readily choose what they believe once they are on their own.

Whaddya mean, “once they are on there own”…?

Did they jump ship…get a divorce or something lol

Originally posted by neutronflux
And non-denominational church are actually grow. Or if they believe at all.

Where are you going with this…and what point are you trying to make…?

The thing is, they’re only called non-denominational because they don’t belong to any of the major denominations that are out there…What does this have to do with the question in my Op…?

The first ever Jehovah’s witness was a unique denominational believer consisting of just one person; at that time people would have called him non-denominational, because he didn’t follow any of the major denominations…But slowly over time his beliefs became more widespread…Until eventually it became a major Christian denomination…

A non-denominational believer will still have his or her set specific beliefs concerning Christianity…which essentially makes them a unique denominational believer, in their own right…Slapping the word non-denominational over it, doesn’t change the fact that they still hold religious beliefs in and around Christianity…i.e. they still belong to a Religion…

They are not somehow exempt from belonging to a Religion…just because they are referred to as non-denominational…But like I said above…I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by bringing this up…

Originally posted by neutronflux
Funny how you want to stereotype people.

Where did I stereotype anyone…???

- JC