Did the Chauvin trial prosecutors just torpedo their entire case

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I'm sure maybe he was...Once again the 9 mins didn't cause that...

I think the question here might not be the 9 mins or even the real cause but the last 2 when he was unconscious.

Wasn't it the responsibility of the officers to check his vital signs after he lost consciousness, maybe even perform CPR?

What if Chauvin continued to apply pressure to Floyd's neck to make sure he was dead?

So yeah, Floyd's actions may have been the primary cause, but did Chauvin's actions contribute to his death?

I think that is what is being hashed out in this trial.

a reply to: EternalShadow

That's all fine and good to say, but a police officer does not have the authority, and should not have the authority, to make that decision. That's the law, however inconvenient it may be.

Maybe a looky at the autopsy report would reveal actual cause of death: www.hennepin.us...

no life-threatening injuries identified (read: Chauvin didn't kill him)
severe arteriosclerosis
4x lethal dose of fentanyl
2x lethal dose of norfentanyl
hypertensive disease

I guess science won't matter in Chauvin's case, just appearances and outrage because he cried for mama on video.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
no life-threatening injuries identified (read: Chauvin didn't kill him)...
I guess science won't matter in Chauvin's case, just appearances and outrage because he cried for mama on video.

A pillow over the face probably wouldn't show life-threatening injuries in an autopsy either.

Like I said, the issue might not be if Chauvin outright killed him, but if he held him down until he was surely dead.

Speaking of crying mama in the video, seems like somebody (Chauvin?) said something like "just get in the car" and he replied "I will" (compliance), he then moves his head and chest up and Chauvin presses down with his knee. That was when Floyd said "mama".

If he was willing to get in the car at that point, why continue pressing?

Is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt? No, but it is there and who knows what else might sway a jury one way or the other.

ETA:

4x lethal dose of fentanyl
2x lethal dose of norfentanyl
hypertensive disease

According to this Fentanyl drug profile

Overdose results in respiratory depression which is reversible with naloxone. Sudden death can also occur because of cardiac arrest or severe anaphylactic reaction. The estimated lethal dose of fentanyl in humans is 2 mg. The recommended serum concentration for analgesia is 1–2 ng/ml and for anaesthesia it is 10–20 ng/ml. Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved.

The autopsy report said "Fentanyl 11 ng/mL", so while 7 ng/ml may be associated with fatalities when there are other substances it isn't even close to 4x the lethal dose. The meth and THC in that report are really low.

Norfentanyl and 4-ANPP are just metabolites of fentanyl and probably there because of previous use.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

I'm sure you didn't intentionally omit the actual title of the report, but for the record it reads...

CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT
SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION

Additionally, the autopsy report, while very thorough, doesn't actually list a "Cause of Death", at least not one that I saw. Consequently, I don't think it's accurate to characterize the actual cause of death as what you stated in your post.

ETA - And, as I have noted numerous times in this thread, I have exactly zero emotional motivation in this case at all. I could care less who Floyd appealed to during his arrest, it wouldn't change my feelings one way or the other. He was a dirtbag criminal. Period. There is no argument on this point.

originally posted by: BrokenCircles

originally posted by: ARM1968

If he is complaining of breathing difficulties prior to the knee on the neck then it increases the wilful negligence of the officers and Chauvin in particular.

But why should they believe him, when there are no signs suggesting he couldn't breathe, and also while he is actively resisting arrest? After all, he was actually breathing.

That will be for the defence to argue. All I was pointing out was the possible path the prosecution are taking with that video. I suspect Chauvin will take the fall for this, too costly for him but to. Now whether he should or not is another matter. He AND the other cops are certainly guilty of stupidity, but murder I’m not so sure about. All that being said, kneeling on anyone’s neck for nearly 9 minutes is ridiculous. That cannot be argued.

I disagree I think cops deal with the same disease ,trauma and human physiological conditions as well as having their own life in jeopardy which doctors do not.


It’s apples to apples.
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: trollz
I think he might of been going into cardiac arrest, in any case, he was on the ground and compliant, you cant let the police do that sh#t for 9 minutes..nobody is changing my mind on THAT. The use of force is to gain compliance, he went well beyond that.

I agree! Chauvin looked annoyed with the onlookers as well, smug actually. The man was handcuffed, 9 minutes is murder!

a reply to: Athetos

LOL...that's just silly!

So what you're telling us is you'd be perfectly fine with a Chicago beat cop performing brain surgery on you instead of a doctor???

LOLOL...okaaaaay!

originally posted by: daskakik

I think the question here might not be the 9 mins or even the real cause but the last 2 when he was unconscious.

OK lets say he messed up there, was worried to control the situation until paramedics could arrive, was concern with the crowd growing larger and very unfriendly. What do we we call that, involuntary manslaughter at worst?

What if Chauvin continued to apply pressure to Floyd's neck to make sure he was dead?

He would have had to know he was having a heart attack first, and we already know the knee to the neck didn't kill him... I think in the end we are debating a couple of minutes or seconds here, and that is easy for us to do now, but in the situation it is much different.

The guy had also been a cop a long time with a clean record, don't think that was what his goal was.

Witness refuses to testify today.

www.foxnews.com...

Red Flag.

a reply to: carewemust

This is probably related to the previous testimony given fingering him and the female in the car both as Floyds dealers. Literrally just happened 40 minutes or so ago.

a reply to: RMFX1

Thanks for the update!

a reply to: trollz

That video has been out there on the web for a year.

Now ask a more important question: why are you just hearing about it now?

Still trust your main stream media to tell you all relevant information?

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: RMFX1

Thanks for the update!

Oh I should have added. The testimony was given by Floyds ex girlfriend.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: EternalShadow

That's all fine and good to say, but a police officer does not have the authority, and should not have the authority, to make that decision. That's the law, however inconvenient it may be.

What are you talking about?

Police officers are trained, sworn and, YES, given authority to conduct their jobs in their official capacity.

If you have any other non-lethal techniques that are more appropriate (keep in mind that police are dealing with LAW BREAKERS whom are not going to be thrilled interacting with police to begin with..) when dealing with noncompliance, for the love of GOD feel free to share!

Or just show me the national, statical data that supports the notion that this technique is fatal and needs to be removed from being an option for law enforcement.

You know.... because this is happening EVERYWHERE, right???🙄

🤦🏾‍♂️

a reply to: hounddoghowlie



That's possible. Let's hope everything including this makes it into the trial. All I got to say is it looks reeeeeaaaal bad for the pig that video. It's was pointed out to him the dude was unconscious. He knew the dude was unconscious. He kept his knee on the unconscious dudes neck. Looks real bad and it's gonna take a miracle for them to convince a jury that he didn't die from the knee on neck.

If I was on the jury, my vote would be guilty. That's my opinion, you got yours, we will see what happens soon.

a reply to: daskakik

Speaking of crying mama in the video, seems like somebody (Chauvin?) said something like "just get in the car" and he replied "I will" (compliance), he then moves his head and chest up and Chauvin presses down with his knee. That was when Floyd said "mama".

If he was willing to get in the car at that point, why continue pressing?

I'm pretty sure you're referring to the old man who was talking to Floyd, who was one of the witnesses on the stand yesterday(Day3).


But regardless of what he was saying at this point, Floyd had already made it quite clear that he was not willing to get into the car. He proved that by continuously screaming about his supposed claustrophobia and struggling with them the entire time they were trying to get him to just sit in the car.

originally posted by: Alien Abduct
If I was on the jury, my vote would be guilty. That's my opinion, you got yours, we will see what happens soon.

You dont belong on any jury.. you dont understand the term beyond a reasonable doubt.. no reasonable and honest person can conclude with any confidence that it was the knee not the drugs.. not possible. I cannot stand ppl who are willing to throw someone in a cage for decades when there is PLENTY of reasonable doubt established.

Outsiders point of view ... I dont live in the USA.

I have watched the testimonies so far and my thoughts are this was a lose - lose situation. Watching the full police bodycam video from the time they arrived at the scene till they had left in the ambulance the situation just keeps escalating which impacts their decision making.
George mentions a number of times during the police video that he is claustrophobic. I think his fight/flight kicks in and the fear starts from the moment the police officer opens his car door and is standing close beside him (feels trapped sitting in the car). While it wasnt extreme resistance, he doesnt want the handcuffs on as part of the fight/flight would heighten the fear of no control being handcuffed. If you watch the most calm he is when they sit him down on the footpath against the building and are getting his details. He is upset but fight/flight settles a little with space.
At this stage the police i think are aware he is on something. Therefore their level of self care and awareness of each other heightens. They are trying to be firm in the speech with him but i dont think it is over the top, racist or excessive.
Once they move him to the opposite side and get near the squad car you can see Georges flight or fight kick in again at the thought of being put in the back of the car. His panic is building and now he is saying frequently 'i cant breathe'. Classic symptom of a panic attack is shortness of breath. He asks if he can sit in the front and the officers say no, but does say he will put the windows down. This shows care to me. No way they could allow him in the front but shows acknowledgement of his panic and trying to calm him by saying they would put the window down.
Once they try to get him in the car, George's full on panic really kicks in and he is in absolute heightened flight or fight.
Obviously they cant secure him so decide to pull him out the other side, get him to the ground and reassess what to do.
This is when the lose-lose really starts to kick in as the passer byes start to arrive.
I dont think George couldnt breath because of the knee on the neck. I say this because he had already said it many times, he cant breath because he is having a panic attack.
I would imagine police realise they cant manhandle this large, fit man into the car by wrestling him into it especially with what they assume is unknows substances effecting him. They call for ambulance where they can put him on a stretcher, handcuffed and secured to easier handle him.
So they pin him to the ground to wait.
Passers bye hear him saying he cant breath and see the knee on the neck, but they havent heard him saying that before anyone was anywhere near his neck because they werent there. They put two and two together and think he cant breath because of the knee to the neck.
George is now having a classic panic attack. He cant breath and if you have ever seen someone have a claustrophobic panic attack they do call for what is a safe place in their mind. He starts calling for his momma. his mind is searching for a safe place.
again the crowd believe he is saying i cant breath and calling for his momma ... the police know he had already done this when the didnt have him pinned down ... so they are not going to let him up. Then it just becomes what us aussies would call a mexican stand off. Police wont do what crowd is saying, crowd gets more frustrated and louder in their concerns. They can see his face which the police really cant see as they have him face down. George has now gone into cardiac arrest because of the drugs, the panic, the adrenaline pumping through him because he is having a extreme panic attack.
I honestly dont see any racism. I really do believe the response would have been the same black or white. It was that he had done something wrong, they were arresting him, he was under the influence of drugs, he was not compliant (not trying to escape, but non compliant because of panic attack)

They are guilty of not realising he is going into cardiac arrest, but they will argue the rising anger in the crowd meant they had to concentrate on securing the person and scene. I dont know what the verdict will be but i think there will be massive riots either way. Its not about George ... its become political now. He will be the excuse to absolutely run riot.

Lastly ... a little bit of aussie humour ... i am shocked he got smokes for under $20. And got change .... bloody hell they cost 50 or 60 bucks over here.