Latest Scottish independence poll is first in 22 to not give Yes a lead

a reply to: Lysergic

The SNP are a torpedo, Great Britain is a great big ship and if they have there way they intend to break the back of the ship and sink both end's just for the hell of it because it's boring when there is nothing on telly.

So that was 21 in a row with a yes majority

I like those odds.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
Deleted, I got a bit angry and went on a splurge, I do not hate Sturgeon but it was a dirty trick she played on her own people and also on Alex Salmond whom was more honest than she has ever been.

I disagree with Scot's independence as in reality they are already mostly independent and have there own currency albeit tied to the rest of Britain's preventing them from setting there own exchange rate, they have there own law's, own police, own Scottish regiments (So arguably there own army though it is governed from Westminster).

Sturgeon's government was caught out lying to Scottish kid's in school teaching lies about England and the British Army.

And she is wrong about Scottish finances but is willing to lie to get her way.

If the UK break up that then means that Scotland owes Westminster the bailout money for a bankrupt Scotland that first went to Westminster in order to bail them out for a disastrous waste of scot's funds when they tried to start there own empire by founding a colony in Panama (they sent thick Wool blankets, cold weather gear, crop's only suitable for Scottish climes and such nonsense so the settlers died of disease and starvation and the venture was of course a disaster).

In modern term's factoring in inflation how many billion's of pounds is that to add to the cost of independence, with interest over these century's how much more.

IT could turn out very lucrative for the bank of England not so much for the Scottish treasury as if they break the contract they owe the debt.

Scotland does not have its own currency.

Some scottish banks (private companies ) can issue their own bank notes based on stetling reserves they hold.

Scotland didn't gave a national debt in 1707. The payment made were for us taking on liability for England's. Payments were made to individuals who had list huge sums in the Darren Sceme. Good luck recovering that now.

What you talking about? Greatest actor ever.
Daniel Day-Lewis.

originally posted by: Trueman
a reply to: gortex

As an outsider, I never considered Scottish part of England. Sorry but for some reason, Scottish are kind of cooler. Maybe I'm brainwashed by movies.

ScotLAND isn't part of England, and as far as I can see Gortex didn't say that, he talked about Britain, of which ScotLAND is a part, and is part of the United Kingdom.

a reply to: ScepticScot

You know I was wracking my brain for that, Sterling, I was thinking silver anything to try to jog my memory but it would not come.

Getting old.

And yes you are of course correct but I just wanted to throw out a wasp nest for some to think about and you know?, would it be contract breaking and what would that then mean if it was taken to litigation?.

I believe there ARE ground's.

That said I see myself as British and anyone wanting to tear MY country apart as an enemy.

Now if the south of England wanted to go independent and sod off (they are far from all bad and there are some truly nice folk's down there just as north of the border), I may then not be so upset, I mean I like Cornwall, I like Southampton etc but the city of London has too much power, the capital of the UK should have been Manchester once it formed.

Now under a democratic united kingdom were all the people should but do not have equal right's one in which the nations would be regarded as regions of the UK wealth would be more fairly distributed BUT of course trade is going to go were the shortest transit point is so the south of England will always have the lions share there, Scotland now we are out of the EU will have it's fish stock's recover and while the EU are willing to starve themselves of fish to spite us that won't last they need our fish.

And as BRITISH citizen's who equally own this land let's look at population and not even get into ancestry, more scot's than you would care to think actually.

Scotland just under five and a half million people.

Wales Under three point two million people.

Northern Ireland (Scottish Unionists mostly of Scot's descent and Catholics of Irish) just under two million people (there are also more people of Irish descent in the England alone than in the entire island of Ireland, when the IRA blew up a bomb in St Helens killing kid's they killed people of Catholic Irish descent, the same when they bombed Manchester etc).

England (Where people from these other places often moved before they headed off to the colonies and most ended up staying despite claims otherwise (Depending on how many EU citizens have now or are going to go home) about fifty four to fifty six million people.

Now what Scot's nationalists are saying to the descendants of Scot's in England whom had there homes and ancestral land's stolen by Scottish robber Barons and Lairds is that they can then NEVER go home, never reclaim there ancestral land's because they will then be foreigners in the lands there ancestors came from.

And also the fact is we are ONE people many accent's, many dialect's but one people, the British people.

Yes Scot's look different to people from Cornwall or Wales or Devon or Southampton BUT if you look at Yorkshire men and scots you will find it harder to discern, Lancashire men and scot's harder to discern, IRISH and SCOTS sometimes impossible to discern but in Scotland you will see folks with strong Pictish ancestry, not many left but those that are tend to be smaller, stockier and more compact than the bigger Dane rich blood of the Scot's and often also more swarthy skinned.
It began after the initial scot's invasion when the peace was signed at about a 2/1 ratio of Scots to Caledonian native Pict people (whom the Scots had been slaughtering up to this point), the Pict's despite fighting hard had been driven ever further back by the invading Scots and it was only when one of the strongest Scot's chieftains made a deal with the wary Pict King in which the Scots son married the Picts daughter and so gained the throne that the Pict's finally accepted there lot as a subservient people to the Scot's, Caledonia has been known as Scotland ever since and the spirit of the native painted people was all but lost to the influx of Scot's from Ireland (Whose Dane and Norwegian MALE lineage first settled in North West England before crossing to invade Ireland before mixing and going native there - Limerick is actually a Viking city for example as is Dublin etc.

We were fighting one another and killing our cousins for thousands of years before the Roman's, before the Saxon's, before the Viking's, Before the Normans even put there toes in the water, let's not deny that this is partially based on RACISM, hatred of the English which is when all is said and done HATRED of ones own reflection.

Robby Burn's, a Burn is a SAXON world for a Stream, wonder how a Scot got a surname from the Saxon Language?.

One people, only united can we stand and divided we WILL fall.


You know who want's us divided - OUR REAL ENEMY'S.

Think of all the blood spilled by Scot's, Welsh, Irish (yes Irish and when they fought for Britain the faced terrible consequences back in Eira), Cornish and English in shared fields, fighting on the same side for hundreds of years as brothers.

This is a betrayal of them, of there blood and of there sacrifice.

It is SPITTING on the graves of the dead.

It's our ENEMYS that want us divided, that want us to fall.


And who wants us to fail desperately, to make us a failed state, to make our economy shatter why the EU because if they don't make an example of us, of EVERY part of the UK including Scotland by the way they will not be able to hold the EU together.

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

While not the biggest Sturgeon fan myself, I'd still trust her to make better decisions for Scotland than Westminster ever could.

Nicola Sturgeon is a horrible person.

That being said I think she has managed this pandemic better than Boris and by and large made better decisions.
She has shown the devolved power can and does work.
Personally I see no reason why all the regions of the UK could have even greater autonomy whilst remaining within some sort of federal Union.

Westminster is a rotten, rancid entity and we need urgent and radical reform.

It's my hope that the battle she is facing against her former friend and party leader Alex Salmond brings an end to her leadership and Scotland can move forward with fresh leadership to tackle it's real problems for the sake of its people.

I remember people saying that Nicola Sturgeon was a breath of fresh air and would show those in Westminster how politicians should conduct themselves - the reality is that both her and her predecessor are just as guilty of self-aggrandisement and incompetence as all our other politicians.
I see absolutely no reason why her successor won't be just as unsuitable for office as she is, Salmond was, Boris is, Cameron was, Blair was, blah blah blah.

On the flip-side, a new leader could help even more towards the ultimate goal of a free and independent Scotland.

You make it sound as if Scotland is some sort of subjugated nation whose people are oppressed by a conquering nation.
That makes the Scottish people appear very weak, nothing could be further from the truth.

Your opinion is noted, however Scotland does not need Britain to be strong.....

Of course an 'independent' Scotland could survive, but I suspect it'll do better as part of the UK.
Don't kid yourself, rUK does not need Scotland as well, but we'd like Scotland to stay with us....we have far, far more in common than what we have that separates us and there is a bond that runs deep.

I would suggest the same for Wales and NI, the empire is dying and it will eventually die

Who's talking about 'Empire'?
We all know those days are gone.....but let's not forget the role Scotland played in that Empire or the leading part many Scots took in it.

The world is going to be a harder place post-covid19.
I wonder how Scotland will fair as an independent country or as an irrelevant part of the EU?

Yes, we need change.
Yes, we need more devolved powers.
But I don't see how a complete break up of The Union benefits anyone.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: ScepticScot

You know I was wracking my brain for that, Sterling, I was thinking silver anything to try to jog my memory but it would not come.

Getting old.

And yes you are of course correct but I just wanted to throw out a wasp nest for some to think about and you know?, would it be contract breaking and what would that then mean if it was taken to litigation?.

I believe there ARE ground's.

That said I see myself as British and anyone wanting to tear MY country apart as an enemy.

Now if the south of England wanted to go independent and sod off (they are far from all bad and there are some truly nice folk's down there just as north of the border), I may then not be so upset, I mean I like Cornwall, I like Southampton etc but the city of London has too much power, the capital of the UK should have been Manchester once it formed.

Now under a democratic united kingdom were all the people should but do not have equal right's one in which the nations would be regarded as regions of the UK wealth would be more fairly distributed BUT of course trade is going to go were the shortest transit point is so the south of England will always have the lions share there, Scotland now we are out of the EU will have it's fish stock's recover and while the EU are willing to starve themselves of fish to spite us that won't last they need our fish.

And as BRITISH citizen's who equally own this land let's look at population and not even get into ancestry, more scot's than you would care to think actually.

Scotland just under five and a half million people.

Wales Under three point two million people.

Northern Ireland (Scottish Unionists mostly of Scot's descent and Catholics of Irish) just under two million people (there are also more people of Irish descent in the England alone than in the entire island of Ireland, when the IRA blew up a bomb in St Helens killing kid's they killed people of Catholic Irish descent, the same when they bombed Manchester etc).

England (Where people from these other places often moved before they headed off to the colonies and most ended up staying despite claims otherwise (Depending on how many EU citizens have now or are going to go home) about fifty four to fifty six million people.

Now what Scot's nationalists are saying to the descendants of Scot's in England whom had there homes and ancestral land's stolen by Scottish robber Barons and Lairds is that they can then NEVER go home, never reclaim there ancestral land's because they will then be foreigners in the lands there ancestors came from.

And also the fact is we are ONE people many accent's, many dialect's but one people, the British people.

Yes Scot's look different to people from Cornwall or Wales or Devon or Southampton BUT if you look at Yorkshire men and scots you will find it harder to discern, Lancashire men and scot's harder to discern, IRISH and SCOTS sometimes impossible to discern but in Scotland you will see folks with strong Pictish ancestry, not many left but those that are tend to be smaller, stockier and more compact than the bigger Dane rich blood of the Scot's and often also more swarthy skinned.
It began after the initial scot's invasion when the peace was signed at about a 2/1 ratio of Scots to Caledonian native Pict people (whom the Scots had been slaughtering up to this point), the Pict's despite fighting hard had been driven ever further back by the invading Scots and it was only when one of the strongest Scot's chieftains made a deal with the wary Pict King in which the Scots son married the Picts daughter and so gained the throne that the Pict's finally accepted there lot as a subservient people to the Scot's, Caledonia has been known as Scotland ever since and the spirit of the native painted people was all but lost to the influx of Scot's from Ireland (Whose Dane and Norwegian MALE lineage first settled in North West England before crossing to invade Ireland before mixing and going native there - Limerick is actually a Viking city for example as is Dublin etc.

We were fighting one another and killing our cousins for thousands of years before the Roman's, before the Saxon's, before the Viking's, Before the Normans even put there toes in the water, let's not deny that this is partially based on RACISM, hatred of the English which is when all is said and done HATRED of ones own reflection.

Robby Burn's, a Burn is a SAXON world for a Stream, wonder how a Scot got a surname from the Saxon Language?.

One people, only united can we stand and divided we WILL fall.


You know who want's us divided - OUR REAL ENEMY'S.

Think of all the blood spilled by Scot's, Welsh, Irish (yes Irish and when they fought for Britain the faced terrible consequences back in Eira), Cornish and English in shared fields, fighting on the same side for hundreds of years as brothers.

This is a betrayal of them, of there blood and of there sacrifice.

It is SPITTING on the graves of the dead.

It's our ENEMYS that want us divided, that want us to fall.


And who wants us to fail desperately, to make us a failed state, to make our economy shatter why the EU because if they don't make an example of us, of EVERY part of the UK including Scotland by the way they will not be able to hold the EU together.

People ethnicity isn't and shouldn't be a part of independence. If the people who actually choose to live in Scotland want scotland to be independent that should be the miss determining factor.

Scotland becoming independent does not stop people coming back to Scotland either.

I will ignore the irony of your 'one people' post ending with an anti EU sentiment.

a reply to: ScepticScot

To a large extent I agree with what you said; Scotland will do as Scotland see's fit.....and that is exactly as it should be.
Personally I sincerely hope that Scotland remains in The Union and that we all work together to change that Union into something we can ALL be proud of.

I will ignore the irony of your 'one people' post ending with an anti EU sentiment.

Anti-EU is not anti-European.
I don't understand why otherwise reasoned and intelligent people seem incapable or unwilling to understand and acknowledge that.
It's the bloated, unregulated, undemocratic, autocratic, inherently corrupt entity that the EU has become that the majority of people who opposed EU membership dislike.
The EU is stripping powers from its constituent member states whereas the UK is devolving power to at least some of its regions.

You mention irony; I see nothing more ironic - and dare I say it contradictory - than talk of independence whilst advocating membership of the EU.

There's a growing regard and respect for the UK in countries like Germany and France who are beginning to see the benefits of being free from the restraints and dictates of the EU.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

To a large extent I agree with what you said; Scotland will do as Scotland see's fit.....and that is exactly as it should be.
Personally I sincerely hope that Scotland remains in The Union and that we all work together to change that Union into something we can ALL be proud of.

I will ignore the irony of your 'one people' post ending with an anti EU sentiment.

Anti-EU is not anti-European.
I don't understand why otherwise reasoned and intelligent people seem incapable or unwilling to understand and acknowledge that.
It's the bloated, unregulated, undemocratic, autocratic, inherently corrupt entity that the EU has become that the majority of people who opposed EU membership dislike.
The EU is stripping powers from its constituent member states whereas the UK is devolving power to at least some of its regions.

You mention irony; I see nothing more ironic - and dare I say it contradictory - than talk of independence whilst advocating membership of the EU.

There's a growing regard and respect for the UK in countries like Germany and France who are beginning to see the benefits of being free from the restraints and dictates of the EU.

And being pro independence isn't anti English as is repeatedly claimed on this site.

As I have pointed out before it isn't the EU that has a hereditary head of state, unelected second chamber, antiquated first past the post system or uncodified constitution that dates back to when less than 1% of the population could vote.

Bloated, unregulated, undemocratic, autocratic and corrupt are all words that describe Westminster far more accurately than the EU.

a reply to: ScepticScot

And being pro independence isn't anti English as is repeatedly claimed on this site.

True....but some are.

I've been to Scotland many times and have quite a few Scottish friends, some very close.
I've come to the conclusion that there is a sizeable minority of Scots who are anti-English.
It seems to be directed mostly towards Southern English; I come from North East England and I genuinely can not count the number of times I've been told 'Oh, you Geordies - I am NOT a Geordie! - are ok, its those Cockney bastards we can't stand'.
And ridiculing the English is just second nature but if an English person dares to take the piss out of the Scots he is deemed arrogant and a typical example of why the Scots hate the English.

I like a bit of craic and give as good as I get and I can tell that some people really don't like it when I fire back at them.
But I guess that's a trait that isn't unique to the Scots.

And then we get those who blame all of Scotland's problems - both current and historic - on the English and absolutely refuse to accept any level of responsibility themselves.
Its both convenient and politically expedient to blame your neighbours....and inaccurate.

As I have pointed out before it isn't the EU that has a hereditary head of state,....

UK's Head Of State is purely ceremonial and has no power.

I think you should look at the powers of The President of the European Commission, how he/she gets elected and the provision for combining that role with that of the President of the European Council.
I don't think there are any plans for EU wide elections for the position.

....unelected second chamber, antiquated first past the post system or uncodified constitution that dates back to when less than 1% of the population could vote.

I don't disagree with any of that.
I've long advocated urgent and radical reform of our parliamentary and electoral processes and procedures.
You're preaching to the converted.

Bloated, unregulated, undemocratic, autocratic and corrupt are all words that describe Westminster far more accurately than the EU.

We have a greater chance of effecting real and positive change here in Westminster than we ever would have done with Brussels which is dominated by France, Germany and other continental Europeans.

Do you honestly believe an independent Scotland would have a voice in real and important decision making within the EU if it wished to be a member?
The EU would dictate the majority of your decision making, certainly regarding foreign and economic policies and the way its going it won't be long until they start dictating most domestic policies too.
I can't see Scotland's wishes and best interests being high up on the list of priorities in Brussels can you?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

And being pro independence isn't anti English as is repeatedly claimed on this site.

True....but some are.

I've been to Scotland many times and have quite a few Scottish friends, some very close.
I've come to the conclusion that there is a sizeable minority of Scots who are anti-English.
It seems to be directed mostly towards Southern English; I come from North East England and I genuinely can not count the number of times I've been told 'Oh, you Geordies - I am NOT a Geordie! - are ok, its those Cockney bastards we can't stand'.
And ridiculing the English is just second nature but if an English person dares to take the piss out of the Scots he is deemed arrogant and a typical example of why the Scots hate the English.

I like a bit of craic and give as good as I get and I can tell that some people really don't like it when I fire back at them.
But I guess that's a trait that isn't unique to the Scots.

And then we get those who blame all of Scotland's problems - both current and historic - on the English and absolutely refuse to accept any level of responsibility themselves.
Its both convenient and politically expedient to blame your neighbours....and inaccurate.

As I have pointed out before it isn't the EU that has a hereditary head of state,....

UK's Head Of State is purely ceremonial and has no power.

I think you should look at the powers of The President of the European Commission, how he/she gets elected and the provision for combining that role with that of the President of the European Council.
I don't think there are any plans for EU wide elections for the position.

....unelected second chamber, antiquated first past the post system or uncodified constitution that dates back to when less than 1% of the population could vote.

I don't disagree with any of that.
I've long advocated urgent and radical reform of our parliamentary and electoral processes and procedures.
You're preaching to the converted.

Bloated, unregulated, undemocratic, autocratic and corrupt are all words that describe Westminster far more accurately than the EU.

We have a greater chance of effecting real and positive change here in Westminster than we ever would have done with Brussels which is dominated by France, Germany and other continental Europeans.

Do you honestly believe an independent Scotland would have a voice in real and important decision making within the EU if it wished to be a member?
The EU would dictate the majority of your decision making, certainly regarding foreign and economic policies and the way its going it won't be long until they start dictating most domestic policies too.
I can't see Scotland's wishes and best interests being high up on the list of priorities in Brussels can you?

And some people voted for brexit because they hate foreigners. I rember a more anti migrant rhetoric from the leave campaign in the EU referendum than anti English rhetoric from the yes campaign in the indy ref.

An independent scotland gets to decide if it wants to be part if the EU or not, rather than that decision being made for us.

If we do rejoin we still have far more control over our own affairs than we do as part of the UK. The EU refendum proves that The UK didn't have to ask permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU Scotland does to leave the UK.

a reply to: ScepticScot

And some people voted for brexit because they hate foreigners.

Of course some did, it would be pretty stupid to deny that....but in nowhere near the numbers many Remoaners would have people believe.
They still insist on pushing the lie that Brexit voters are all racist, xenophobic, ignorant and ill informed.

.....I rember a more anti migrant rhetoric from the leave campaign in the EU referendum than anti English rhetoric from the yes campaign in the indy ref.

Was it 'anti migrant rhetoric' or people voicing genuine concerns about Freedom of Movement and open door immigration policies?
There is a MASSIVE difference, if only we were allowed to have an open, frank and uncensored public discussion.....but unfortunately woke politics does not allow for this.
A discussion for another time and place methinks.

An independent scotland gets to decide if it wants to be part if the EU or not, rather than that decision being for us.

I understand that and that's as it should be.
The impression I get - by speaking to Scottish people in real life - is that most Scots who are in favour of independence would also like to be part of the EU.
Its only an impression and I could easily be wrong.

If we do rejoin we still have far more control over our own affairs than we do as part of the UK.

I don't quite see how you come to that conclusion.....no say on foreign affairs, little input and influence on economic matters, most major decisions made by the European parliament.
The EU is wanting MORE control over national assemblies which will mean less devolved power.

But as you say, that would be Scotland's choice if it ever chooses independence.

The EU refendum proves that The UK didn't have to ask permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU Scotland does to leave the UK.

How often do you want a referendum?
Even Salmond and Sturgeon publicly stated on numerous occasions that the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a lifetime' vote.
As they didn't get the result they wanted they want another ballot - just like the EU referendum.
How many times?
If an IndyRef2 resulted in a vote for independence would you honour the inevitable calls from the other side for a deciding best of three referendum or would you say that the people have voted and the result is the result?

The SNP would be better off getting their own house in order and get on with the business of governing their country instead of turning anything and everything into an independence issue and thus diverting attention away from the job they are doing and dealing with the real, everyday problems that face Scotland today.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

And some people voted for brexit because they hate foreigners.

Of course some did, it would be pretty stupid to deny that....but in nowhere near the numbers many Remoaners would have people believe.
They still insist on pushing the lie that Brexit voters are all racist, xenophobic, ignorant and ill informed.

That sounded reasonable enough at the start, an informed sounding analysis, without actually mentioning numbers, but then, all of a sudden..'Remoaners' become propagandists? Whyyy? the actual referendum votes would be a stalemate in any business arrangement, with a necessary quorum, yet and all, we ended up with a current prime minister who told lies about the business arrangements, who joined forces with nutball far right forces, and admitted he told lies, on his alliance battlebus. So don't imply that people were not ill informed, they were, big time.
What happened is now history, except for the fallout, and er, now COVID, and....?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

And some people voted for brexit because they hate foreigners.

Of course some did, it would be pretty stupid to deny that....but in nowhere near the numbers many Remoaners would have people believe.
They still insist on pushing the lie that Brexit voters are all racist, xenophobic, ignorant and ill informed.

.....I rember a more anti migrant rhetoric from the leave campaign in the EU referendum than anti English rhetoric from the yes campaign in the indy ref.

Was it 'anti migrant rhetoric' or people voicing genuine concerns about Freedom of Movement and open door immigration policies?
There is a MASSIVE difference, if only we were allowed to have an open, frank and uncensored public discussion.....but unfortunately woke politics does not allow for this.
A discussion for another time and place methinks.

An independent scotland gets to decide if it wants to be part if the EU or not, rather than that decision being for us.

I understand that and that's as it should be.
The impression I get - by speaking to Scottish people in real life - is that most Scots who are in favour of independence would also like to be part of the EU.
Its only an impression and I could easily be wrong.

If we do rejoin we still have far more control over our own affairs than we do as part of the UK.

I don't quite see how you come to that conclusion.....no say on foreign affairs, little input and influence on economic matters, most major decisions made by the European parliament.
The EU is wanting MORE control over national assemblies which will mean less devolved power.

But as you say, that would be Scotland's choice if it ever chooses independence.

The EU refendum proves that The UK didn't have to ask permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU Scotland does to leave the UK.

How often do you want a referendum?
Even Salmond and Sturgeon publicly stated on numerous occasions that the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a lifetime' vote.
As they didn't get the result they wanted they want another ballot - just like the EU referendum.
How many times?
If an IndyRef2 resulted in a vote for independence would you honour the inevitable calls from the other side for a deciding best of three referendum or would you say that the people have voted and the result is the result?

The SNP would be better off getting their own house in order and get on with the business of governing their country instead of turning anything and everything into an independence issue and thus diverting attention away from the job they are doing and dealing with the real, everyday problems that face Scotland today.

Do you remember the 'breaking point' poster? I don't think being a brexit supporter means someone is racist and have never claimed that. However on this site (and elsewhere) it is often claimed the wish for Scottish is based on anti English sentiment or petty nationalism while being pro brexit is about some higher cause of liberty and sovereignty British nationalism good - Scottish nationalism bad.

The referendum was described as a one in a life time opportunity, which it generally was seen as. At no point did any senior member of the Yes campaign say there would be a end to the Independence campaign. Do you remember what Farage said about the EU refefendum?

Leaving is decided by a simple one off majority regardless of how slim. That is the rules brexit supporters have now firmly established. Thanks guys.

Based on popularity and election results the SNP seem to be seen as doing a pretty good job of running scotland. I don't think they really need to divert attention anywhere and up here we manage to walk and chew gum and the same time....

a reply to: smurfy

Both sides told blatant, outright lies, exaggerated truths and engaged in misinformation.

To accuse one side of it without recognising and acknowledging that the other side was equally disingenuous would show a bias I certainly wouldn't expect from such esteemed and well regarded members like yourself and SS.

Its worth re-iterating that many within the EU, including pro-EU politicians and high profile figures, are quite envious of the position the UK now finds itself in.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Err, haven't got a clue what happened there?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Do you remember the 'breaking point' poster?

Yes, Farage at his 'best'.

I also remember Remainers repeatedly telling me that the sky was going to fall in if we voted for Brexit and that I was an uncaring, inconsiderate, ill educated, racist moron for wanting to leave the EU.

I don't think being a brexit supporter means someone is racist and have never claimed that.

But many have.

However on this site (and elsewhere) it is often claimed the wish for Scottish is based on anti English sentiment or petty nationalism while being pro brexit is about some higher cause of liberty and sovereignty British nationalism good - Scottish nationalism bad.

I don't think anyone can deny that there is an element of anti-English sentiment, possibly more so in real life than on here but I can think of at least two members here on ATS who can only be described as rabid anti-English.
I'm also the first to acknowledge that the vast majority of Scots on here are cracking people, one or two of whom I've sort of grown relatively close to despite having quite different opinions on Scottish independence.

Some of my best friends in 'real life' are Scots, a couple of them are passionate Nats.

Please compare the way anyone who expresses any sort of English Nationalism is portrayed with Scottish/Welsh/Irish Nationalists.
English Nationalists - and even British Nationalists - are immediately labelled and stereotyped as incredibly arrogant and ignorant and worse still racist.

So, would you support calls for a third and final referendum if IndyRef2 produced a small majority for Scottish independence?

Based on popularity and election results the SNP seem to be seen as doing a pretty good job of running scotland.

I get the impression that like the rest of the world people are becoming polarised.
Those who support independence won't criticise the SNP as its viewed as criticism of independence itself.
Those who oppose independence won't praise the SNP for anything for fear of being supportive of independence.

Some people vote SNP because they don't want to vote Labour or Conservative - who can blame them, neither do I - and I don't think it gives a true reflection on exactly how well they are actually running things.

I think the general consensus is that Sturgeon has been bordering on criminally negligent in her dealings in her own constituency which is generally regarded as one of the most deprived in Scotland.
Instead of turning anything and everything into an independence issue regardless of relevance perhaps she should concentrate on dealing with real issues that affect people on a daily basis.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Do you remember the 'breaking point' poster?

Yes, Farage at his 'best'.

I also remember Remainers repeatedly telling me that the sky was going to fall in if we voted for Brexit and that I was an uncaring, inconsiderate, ill educated, racist moron for wanting to leave the EU.

I don't think being a brexit supporter means someone is racist and have never claimed that.

But many have.

However on this site (and elsewhere) it is often claimed the wish for Scottish is based on anti English sentiment or petty nationalism while being pro brexit is about some higher cause of liberty and sovereignty British nationalism good - Scottish nationalism bad.

I don't think anyone can deny that there is an element of anti-English sentiment, possibly more so in real life than on here but I can think of at least two members here on ATS who can only be described as rabid anti-English.
I'm also the first to acknowledge that the vast majority of Scots on here are cracking people, one or two of whom I've sort of grown relatively close to despite having quite different opinions on Scottish independence.

Some of my best friends in 'real life' are Scots, a couple of them are passionate Nats.

Please compare the way anyone who expresses any sort of English Nationalism is portrayed with Scottish/Welsh/Irish Nationalists.
English Nationalists - and even British Nationalists - are immediately labelled and stereotyped as incredibly arrogant and ignorant and worse still racist.

So, would you support calls for a third and final referendum if IndyRef2 produced a small majority for Scottish independence?

Based on popularity and election results the SNP seem to be seen as doing a pretty good job of running scotland.

I get the impression that like the rest of the world people are becoming polarised.
Those who support independence won't criticise the SNP as its viewed as criticism of independence itself.
Those who oppose independence won't praise the SNP for anything for fear of being supportive of independence.

Some people vote SNP because they don't want to vote Labour or Conservative - who can blame them, neither do I - and I don't think it gives a true reflection on exactly how well they are actually running things.

I think the general consensus is that Sturgeon has been bordering on criminally negligent in her dealings in her own constituency which is generally regarded as one of the most deprived in Scotland.
Instead of turning anything and everything into an independence issue regardless of relevance perhaps she should concentrate on dealing with real issues that affect people on a daily basis.

I will deal with your last point by itself if I may

What makes you think the general consensus is that? I have seen that argument made, including by a pro indy poster on here, but that us far from general consensus if it was the general consensus she wouldn't still be the constituency MSP.

I consider a fairly poorly thought out criticism if well being of a constituency was an indicator of quality of MP then Conservative MPs would be almost universally superior I doubt either of us thinks that.

MSPs have arguably even less influence over the wealth of their constituencies than MPs. If she was using her powers as first minister to directly improve her constituency then you would be calling her corrupt and I would be agreeing.

a reply to: Freeborn

Sorry for answering in separate posts, on phone and its not cooperating .

On the English/British nationalism I think there is an unfortunate association that has existed for decades This has decreased at points (cool britania and all that.. ) but has never really went away.

Its unfair but its also true that a certain mind set with repugnant views has co opted a lot of English and British symbols. That's not to say it doesn't happen with other countries but the association is stronger in the UK.