Microgrids

The ongoing power issues in Texas have provoked some thought on my part on the ideo of micro-grids.

I had heard about this concept for years now. My understanding is that a micro-grid is a decentralized, geographically localized power grid. It may or may not be hooked into a larger scale power grid at the regional or national level. Both the power generation/storage/distribution and power consumption occur within a set of 'nodes', which could be commercial buildings, school/public facilities, or private residences. It's the last scenario (private homes) that interests me most.

For some time, the idea of energy independence, "living off the grid", has been an appealing notion for me. We are seeing the rationale for this play out right now in Texas. When it comes down to it, energy is the fundamental source of the type of lifestyle we enjoy today in the 21st century. When you are deprived of it, it can make everything from heating, lighting, sanitation to entertainment and leisure a struggle. I grew up in a wood-burning household where staying warm meant splitting and stacking many cord of wood in the fair weather seasons, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the niceties of a modern existence. When some event comes along that disrupts this, particularly events that ought to have contingencies and fail-safes in place to prevent power disruptions, then it can make one question why you'd put your trust in bureaucrats and government officials to keep your lights on. In the Northeast, particularly in New England, we constantly deal with ice storms that can disrupt power. In particular, it's vital that the utilities and private home owners trim back trees that encroach on the power utility lines, as that is a very frequent source of taking down power lines. Amazingly, you can drive around where I live and see many instances where power lines weave in and out of old, decaying trees for many blocks. This is a testament to how neglect and failure to maintain infrastructure can set you up for pain and discomfort. Having a generator for at least keeping the fridge and furnace running is very important, because otherwise you're placing your ability to eat and stay warm in other people's hands, and generally those are hands of big utilities and big government. If micro-grids can make us impervious to apathy and mismanagement of power infrastructure by faceless, nameless organizations, then I'm all for it.

There are lots of resources about microgrids (what they are, how they work, the science behind them) on the Internet. Really, though, I'm interested in facts and experiences from members here who understand the pros/cons of microgrids, and might even have some first hand experience in setting them up. So, what do you know about microgrids ATS, and do any of you live within such an arrangement?

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

It sounds nice in theory. Large scale energy generation is time and money intensive. A backup system with a cutoff from the main grid would be great for emergencies, but the cost of making this work reliably would be prohibitive unless labor and materials were free. When the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine somebody needs to be monitoring the other generation and ensure the storage has enough for off hours. They mention hydro, but they're either ignorant of how hard commercial hydro is or they're being disingenuous about it being viable. If it touches navigable water and requires modification of shoreline it's going to price out all but the most wealthy. I know there's small scale generation happening, but you just end up back at needing full-time support and monitoring anyway.

It's possible and some innovators may pick up on it, but we're technologically a bit away from this being anything other than niche.

I also wouldn't trust my neighbors to know how to plug in a 9-volt battery. I'm sure as hell not counting on them to run my power or water distribution.

I've had a similar thought in that individual homes could be powered through your own waste/recycle stream. Like.. have an aluminum can or plastic bottle? Feed it into a chute and it converts to energy for your own use.. I know it's far fetched but thought it would be cool. I guess it came to mind because I have to store everything I recycle and haul it about 15 miles to the nearest facility.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

It sounds nice in theory. Large scale energy generation is time and money intensive. A backup system with a cutoff from the main grid would be great for emergencies, but the cost of making this work reliably would be prohibitive unless labor and materials were free. When the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine somebody needs to be monitoring the other generation and ensure the storage has enough for off hours. They mention hydro, but they're either ignorant of how hard commercial hydro is or they're being disingenuous about it being viable. If it touches navigable water and requires modification of shoreline it's going to price out all but the most wealthy. I know there's small scale generation happening, but you just end up back at needing full-time support and monitoring anyway.

It's possible and some innovators may pick up on it, but we're technologically a bit away from this being anything other than niche.

I also wouldn't trust my neighbors to know how to plug in a 9-volt battery. I'm sure as hell not counting on them to run my power or water distribution.

Great points.

I know in my small town in Central New York, we actually had an old dam on a river that cuts through town. It was once used to operate a mill. Eventually, this was converted into a hydro plant, albeit a very small one. I always wondered how much power it produced, and where it went (certainly gobbled up by regional grid and not used for local consumption).

The technology, as you mention, needs even more R&D for this to become a viable option. We need better, cheaper and more efficient solar. We need cheaper and more efficient (certainly more impervious to the elements!) windmills. Back in Central NY, wind generation has proliferated, and there are dozens of large windmills there now. Even better would be smaller scale units that a town or private residence could utilize. We also need better and much cheaper residential batteries to help store excess capacity for a literal "rainy day".

It seems like all of these things are available, but they need to be miniaturized, made easier to setup and maintain, and cost effective for small scale operation.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

I have often wondered how much it would take to have such a power grid, The big Issue that I see is keeping the consistency of power in larger cities. Cities that build outwards would probably have a better chance of maintaining the flow of electricity than cities that build up.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

Absolutely wonderful in theory, total crap in reality.

I lived in a "hamlet" where our very small community shared well & septic services, and street lights.
I would never in a million years do it again.
The reason is that when things go wrong they are so much more costly than either
having your own independent system, or being completely connected.
You wouldn't think that, but that is reality.
Although my microgrid was mostly water & waste water related, the theory is the same as a solar one or small electric.
Shared services, shared repairs etc.
It was NEVER cheaper than a traditional hook up and it was significantly more expensive than
having your own independent system.

That neighborhood also had and still has a turnover rate like crazy.
I think the thought of a small neighborhood sharing resources is romanticized but
the reality is ugly!

I highly recommend going completely independent.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened


i recall articles in stuff like 'Popular Science' 'Omni' 'Scientific American' (all magazines i grew up reading)

the idea was probably OK with the soon-to-be-NWO and promoted

micro-grids... as to give power to local neighborhoods . even hubs of services/stores/outlet shops...

micro-grids were to be popping up like mushrooms at Street ends or even 5 acre sized residential sub-communities
but was contingent upon the development of 'Fusion' electric generation stations

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

Absolutely wonderful in theory, total crap in reality.

I lived in a "hamlet" where our very small community shared well & septic services, and street lights.
I would never in a million years do it again.
The reason is that when things go wrong they are so much more costly than either
having your own independent system, or being completely connected.
You wouldn't think that, but that is reality.
Although my microgrid was mostly water & waste water related, the theory is the same as a solar one or small electric.
Shared services, shared repairs etc.
It was NEVER cheaper than a traditional hook up and it was significantly more expensive than
having your own independent system.

That neighborhood also had and still has a turnover rate like crazy.
I think the thought of a small neighborhood sharing resources is romanticized but
the reality is ugly!

I highly recommend going completely independent.

I guess my vision of a "microgrid" would be a collection of private homes (think like an HOA size group of neighbors) that either a) each have their own series of solar panels and possibly own windmills ~or~ b) have a communal set of solar panels and wind farms in a nearby open space.

To Ksihkehe's point, the tech would need to be at a point where it's not just cost effective, but somewhat self-sustaining from a maintenance point of view. This requires local capability in how to, e.g. fix a rotor on a windmill, replace a bad solar cell, etc. If the infrastructure isn't easy (or cheap) enough to maintain by folks in the community, then the entire idea breaks down. A microgrid requiring outside management is not really any different than getting power from a regional grid.

Your point about community turnover/home sales is important, in the sense that there would need to be some provision to ensure that transfer of ownership doesn't erode/decrease the number of homes in the microgrid. If you purchase a home in such a locale, presumably you'd do so knowing the pros (and cons) of being tied into a micro power grid.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

I guess my vision of a "microgrid" would be a collection of private homes (think like an HOA size group of neighbors) that either a) each have their own series of solar panels and possibly own windmills ~or~ b) have a communal set of solar panels and wind farms in a nearby open space. To Ksihkehe's point, the tech would need to be at a point where it's not just cost effective, but somewhat self-sustaining from a maintenance point of view. This requires local capability in how to, e.g. fix a rotor on a windmill, replace a bad solar cell, etc. If the infrastructure isn't easy (or cheap) enough to maintain by folks in the community, then the entire idea breaks down. A microgrid requiring outside management is not really any different than getting power from a regional grid.

We had that in our neighborhood regarding maintenance and people got tired of doing it. Especially when alarms went off at 3am on the septic. So then we hired it out and it was super expensive. At first we all did mowing and landscaping too, that also got old and we hired it out, again super expensive. Our HOA had a meeting regarding the water system. Only a few people showed up and we made some very important decisions that would involve a lot of costs for the owners. Like I said, so glad I don’t live there anymore!

a reply to: JAGStorm

Wow....that certainly doesn't sound like a community centered on self reliance, particularly if they are outsourcing basic lawn care? I don't think that's the type of situation that I'm describing, in which a smaller village or even a subset of neighbors within a village would establish a microgrid. I mean, if people are fussed about mowing their lawns, yeah, they are not good candidates for a microgrid or even potentially owning a home. Sounds like people more suited for living in an apartment or condo.

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
a reply to: JAGStorm

Wow....that certainly doesn't sound like a community centered on self reliance, particularly if they are outsourcing basic lawn care? I don't think that's the type of situation that I'm describing, in which a smaller village or even a subset of neighbors within a village would establish a microgrid. I mean, if people are fussed about mowing their lawns, yeah, they are not good candidates for a microgrid or even potentially owning a home. Sounds like people more suited for living in an apartment or condo.

That's exactly my point. It's exactly what you are describing. The whole purpose of the neighborhood was self sufficiency. That didn't last long.
People are busy. It wasn't about their own personal lawns, it was all the common areas. Same with the septic and water.
One month my water "bill" was over $400. We had to set up an account to account for maintenance, and so everyone was charged per gallon in and OUT. That meant even if you were watering your yard/flowers etc you would still be charged a septic cost. It was crazy.

I'm sure some neighborhoods probably do it better, but maybe I was in the learning curve timeframe.

Obviously, Im all about stuff like micro-grids.

Certainly not as a total alternative though.. Not yet at least. I dont have any issues with fossil fuels, personally. At least not beyond being inherently centralized. A WAG I have is that we should probably be careful about adopting tech that takes energy from massive natural processes like wind currents and tides.

However, wherever these things flow in our society, we can probably harvest it at pretty micro scales.. Water running down gutters, wind gusts created by building architecture, reflections, etc.

I think that the sizes of the nodes greatly dictate what shape it takes. Id say that as adoption reaches the level of an individual home, it shows off the greatest strengths while minimizing weaknesses.

The key to all of it is automation. Not massive corporate implementation, but ultra-lightweight systems on modules like raspberry Pi. So, maintainence, panel angles, even cleaning are handled through automated processes & systems. Otherwise, it requires participation from the people in the node(s), and that single aspect is why things become centralized with this sort of thing.

If we do it with mass produced products, as they exist, we also end up building a platform that can easily be expanded as tech changes. It would also imply greater adoption of stuff like LEDs, outside of just buying those bulbs that replace normal bulbs.

Storage is the biggest issue, everything else is pretty much there. Even using what we have now though, it would be relatively simple to replace old storage with new. At least, if its designed with that compatibility in mind.

I have a home micro-grid.

I live in a motor home with 600 watts of solar panels on the roof.

This keeps the 6 deep cycle batteries charged.

And runs all my lights plus a inverter if i need it.

I also have a 6kw generator and can last more than 2 weeks without outside power.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

Of course its a great idea, You can buy caravans which for all intense and purposes, along with Yachts which are totally off-grid. But the economic straight jacket is organized in such a way that, the laws stop people from going alternative, and virtually sign them into a system that they can no longer afford. In Britain, you have to have a permit from the council to park your caravan on your own property, It was never about how much you earned it was always about how much you spent.

a reply to: Serdgiam

That's right Serdgiam, I remember! When I first joined you and I had a lengthy discussion on smart homes. IIRC you had done a lot of personal exploration and tinkering in this area.

I seem to remember you also advocating 3D printing as a means of sourcing parts/components that one would ordinarily need to send away for (again IIRC).

Ultimately, my long-term interest in this area is in becoming as self-reliant as possible, be it living "off grid", within a mircogrid, or setting up a "smart" home that is more energy efficient (requiring less power to operate) and capable of heating/cooling functions with smaller resource consumption.

originally posted by: ANNED
I have a home micro-grid.

I live in a motor home with 600 watts of solar panels on the roof.

This keeps the 6 deep cycle batteries charged.

And runs all my lights plus a inverter if i need it.

I also have a 6kw generator and can last more than 2 weeks without outside power.

Neat. I'd be interested in knowing more about how your batteries operate and tie in to your solar array.

Do you keep a supply of fuel on hand to run the gen, and if so how much? I imagine 6kw is plenty for your power consumption profile.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

Of course its a great idea, You can buy caravans which for all intense and purposes, along with Yachts which are totally off-grid. But the economic straight jacket is organized in such a way that, the laws stop people from going alternative, and virtually sign them into a system that they can no longer afford. In Britain, you have to have a permit from the council to park your caravan on your own property, It was never about how much you earned it was always about how much you spent.

Is a caravan a style of mobile home?

I agree that (at least in the US) our current arrangements with utility companies are not geared toward allowing customers to be totally energy independent. I've looked into various solar programs. To me, it smells a bit like a revenue stream opportunity. Most people can't afford to install solar array, so the utility covers some or all of the cost and "leases" it to residents over, say, 20 years. Also, you don't really retain the energy you produce for your use. It goes back into the grid and you're reimbursed, usually in a credit to your bill for times when you can't produce solar power (i.e. winter months). Most critically, with many solar array setups, if the grid goes down, *you go down with it* despite having your own generation capability (this sort of shocked me).

I'm not sure permits for storing RVs/mobile homes on one's property is necessarily about curbing energy independence. More likely, it's about not having massive vehicles crammed into relatively small lots, impeding movement or blocking views.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

Until the last few years, legislation had nothing to say about energy storage and metering. Electric companies were gun shy about the idea.

End of 2019 (maybe early 2020), the laws were clarified about metering and storage. For the whole country!

Microgrids will be common in the places where it makes sense.

Redundancy will be common in urban areas.

I think it all happens at once. Room temperature superconducting transmission lines, long term energy storage, and nuclear fusion. Then we are a Star Trek civilization and heading out to the stars!

But we need everyone to be environment nazis and care more about this world, and any other we step foot on, more than we do right now.

Sh#!!

How do I get off this soapbox??!!??!!!’

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

The thing with electrical consumption is that if you remove it for Water Heating and cooking. It drops down to about ten percent of what it was. That's why they charge you line charges because if you have a wood stove, for cooking heating with a wet back. It would cost more in admin charges to bill you than they would get back. Running a Tv and computer is minimal in consumption. Wood is Carbon neutral, and pretty efficient compared to line losses.

a reply to: anonentity

Depends on the computer. Many of the newer models have CPUs that have much much lower TDPs than previous generations, and are way more energy efficient. Also, if you're like me and run one or more hosts (particularly with commercial server main boards) 24x7, you'll see a bit more draw.

We also have gas for cooking in our home.

IMO older appliances can be energy hogs as well.

I think there are power measurement kits you can set up to insert between your outlet and whatever you plug into to gauge how much power is being drawn. I would like to give that a try sometime, and see what some of the top offenders are in our home, in terms of electricity use.