Ecclesiastes (18) The wrong people get rewarded and punished

The book of Ecclesiastes tends to be neglected.
I must admit that I’ve been neglecting it myself.
So I come to this book with no preconceptions, except that a book found in the Old Testament must be intended to have a spiritual meaning. The people who compiled the canon were not in the business of collecting an anthology of “Hebrew literature.

The main theme of the early chapters has been that natural life and human life in the natural world do not go beyond a series of cycles of alternating events. Any apparent changes are discovered to be stages within these cycles, while the overall system itself does not change.

It is “vanity” for humans to look for anything beyond these things in the natural world, trying to transcend the system on their own. It is better, and the gift of God, for them to find their enjoyment in the world as it is, maintaining themselves in the way which God has provided.

Nevertheless, God has “put eternity into man’s mind”, in such a way that eternity cannot be known completely. Thus man is made aware of something greater than himself. “God has made it so, in order that men should fear before him.”

It seems that this nearly completes the central message of the book. Much of what follows looks like an assortment of “footnotes” under the general heading “other flaws noticeable in human life when God is disregarded”.

Ch8 vv10-15

This section repeats the common grievance that undeserving people receive rewards in life, while others receive undeserved ill-treatment. Obviously this grievance has two sides. The rewards of the wicked are covered first.

V10 “Then I saw the wicked buried.”
That is, they received honourable burial. The meaning of “burial” came up in an earlier chapter, when it was observed how often the grasping man “does not enjoy life’s good things, and also has no burial” (ch6 v3). I did not think this meant he was left above the ground. More probably, he was buried in a careless and disrespectful way, like Ebenezer Scrooge.

So when he says “buried” here, he means that the wicked man is getting an honourable funeral. Elaborate ceremony, speeches, a procession, crowds of mourners weeping and tearing their clothes, a song written by Elton John, a trumpet playing the Last Post, a fusillade of shots across the open grave, a memorial plaque erected at his birthplace, a statue in the market-place and a new building named in his memory. The full works. (Actually, not all of these suggestions would have been consistent with Hebrew culture)

“They used to go in and out of the holy place, and were praised in the city where they had done such things.”
The wicked man’s funeral is only the climax of the honour and respect which he received during his lifetime. Think Jimmy Saville.

V11 “Because sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil.”
When other people see that evil deeds so not appear to be punished, they naturally think they may as well join in the fun themselves, because there is nothing to lose. They do not consider the possibility that the sentence may be simply be delayed. Hence Job’s complaint; “Why are not times of judgement kept by the Almighty?” (Job ch24 v1).

Vv12-13 “Yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they fear before him, but it will not be well with the wicked because he does not fear before God”
At first glance, this looks like the kind of reply which Job’s comforters were giving him. That last clause appears to contradict the previous two verses, the complaints of Job, and the common observations of earthly life.

In fact, this assurance is embedded in a statement about length of life which seems even to contradict itself;
“Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life… neither will [the wicked man] prolong his days like a shadow.”
The solution to the paradox may be that there is a difference between the two kinds of “prolonging life”. Perhaps there is a clue in that expression “like a shadow”. I think most translations take it as qualifying “his days”; meaning that the wicked man’s life will have no substance to it. But we might (like the NIV) take it as qualifying “prolong”. and remember that a man’s shadow, under the right conditions, may be extended much longer than his physical body. So prolonging his days “like a shadow” could mean extending them beyond his natural life, something which would not be available to the wicked man.

For if the wicked prosper, as they obviously do, within the bounds of earthly life, then “The wicked shall not prosper” cannot be fulfilled unless the question is extended beyond those bounds.

V14 “There are righteous men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked, and there are wicked men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous.”
Summing up the current false situation, as one of the instances of the “vanity” of the world.

V15 “And I commend enjoyment, for man has no good thing under the sun but to eat and drink and enjoy himself, for this will go with him in his toil through the days of life which God gives him under the sun.”
Returning to the conclusion which he has already reached in ch2 v24, as the answer to all the “vanities” which confront us in our earthly lives.

When Paul quotes “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die” (1 Corinthians ch15 v32), he portrays an attitude which renounces hope in a future life, resolving to make the most of the pleasures available in our current existence. It we lose faith in God, that would be the natural response . On the face of it, this verse in Ecclesiastes and similar verses in the previous chapters resemble the attitude which Paul condemns. That is one of the reasons, I’m sure, why the modern world tends to misjudge Ecclesiastes, dismissing the contents as verging on secular philosophy.

But this writer’s intention is almost the exact opposite of that approach. When he says “Enjoy life”, he does not add “for tomorrow we die”. In his case, the sentence ends with “for this is what God has given you”. He is not renouncing a future life. He is renouncing the effort of striking out an independent path and going beyond the portion of work and pleasure which God has assigned to us. It is his answer to the temptation to question the way that God has arranged the world. His approach is much more spiritual, and certainly much more focussed upon God, than many people will recognise.

The first time I read the entire Bible, I approached Ecclesiastes with some trepidation, fearing that it would make me give up hope, but having read the whole thing, I was comforted. Solomon could not yet see how the bounds of human existence would be transcended...

Thank you DISRAELI.

Have you considered that “Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life" infers reincarnation. Returning to life to atone for sins committed in previous life(s).

That "neither will [the wicked man] prolong his days like a shadow.” infers that it should not be seen as good, As it doesn't extend one's being in real time (sundial shadows).

Ecclesiastes 1:11 "No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.". Did that need stating if we had never lived former generations!

Thank you again! It’s as if god told you want to say to help me with my faith! I have been extremely angry and questioning my faith. The funny thing is I know I’m wrong in this but it’s like I can’t help but feel the way I do!

God bless you!

originally posted by: glend
Have you considered that “Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life" infers reincarnation. Returning to life to atone for sins committed in previous life(s).

I cut that verse up in order to explore different aspects of it. In the actual text, the words quoted above are followed by "yet I know it will be well for those who fear God". The opposing "yet" implies that "prolonging life" is a good thing for the wicked, and a bad thing for those who love to see a just result. The whole context confirms that view of the value-system.

"No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.". Did that need stating if we had never lived former generations.

Do you remember your grandfather's generation? Do you think your grandchildren's generation will remember yours? That's what that verse means.

as reply to: DISRAELI

Yes I see that now.

Thanks Disraeli.

a reply to: DISRAELISo when he says “buried” here, he means that the wicked man is getting an honourable funeral. Elaborate ceremony, speeches, a procession, crowds of mourners weeping and tearing their clothes, a song written by Elton John, a trumpet playing the Last Post, a fusillade of shots across the open grave, a memorial plaque erected at his birthplace, a statue in the market-place and a new building named in his memory. The full works. (Actually, not all of these suggestions would have been consistent with Hebrew culture)

This is an example filling the text with your opinion, in journalism we call this Fluff. So, Where in the text does it say any of these things you filled and piled onto the text? Tell me why buried can't just mean buried?

Many words don't necessarily make your teaching accurate to the the RSV English text. Do you see yet how your teaching let people think other religious views are correct? or that the Bible supports other religions teachings? Danger in that.

a reply to: Veryolduser I have been extremely angry and questioning my faith

Hebrews 11:Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Interesting to note that where you read "Through Faith" in these verses there is an element of God doing a miracle. Where you read "By Faith" there is an element of Man acting (doing something) in faith.

Now keep that in mind when you read

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Through faith, meaning God is doing a miracle of your salvation apart from your acting by your faith.

You may doubt your faith but God is stronger than our doubt. No need to doubt your faith just rest in him. Be assured your salvation is in his hands alone through faith on him (Jesus Christ) who died to secure your salvation. Struggling is part of maturing in our faith.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
The point of that verse is that undeserved good thngs are happening to the wicked man, so "buried" has to imply something more than just "put in the ground".

Sometimes a teacher needs to do something a little more than stating the bare facts, if he wants people to absorb and understand things, and sometimes a little humour helps to that end. "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down." Jesus knew that, as did Abraham Lincoln when he was making a point. There's more to effective teaching than being what Thomas Carlyle calls "Dryasdust".

a reply to: DISRAELI

All worldly antidotes. there is far more Biblical ones you could use if you knew where to find them.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Put in the ground is exactly what it meant no where in the context does it say anything about the type or burial. There is a reason for it not being mentioned but in your rush you over looked what it was.

The same thing happens to the rich and the poor, the wicked and the righteous, male and female all die and are buried. It doesn't matter how one is buried what matters is what wisdom of god they learned because they now stand before God to face judgement.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Personally, I was put in mind of the George Floyd state funeral when most ordinary people who had relatives die at that time could not have even normal funerals for them and be at their sides as they were lowered into the grave, let alone the gross, orgiastic bewailing of the state apparatus for a man who was a scoundrel and drag addict.

a reply to: ketsuko

Not the point of this chapter.

The point of this burial is "time and judgment" found in the previous verse but divorced but cutting it up into delineated sections by man. It was convenient that the RSV, the bible being used changed it from that to "time and way" which makes absolutely no sense.

God does not care what your burial was like or how many people respected/disrespected or liked/hated you. If you are wicked or if you are righteous your time will come to be judged.

In Christ you are already Judged, without Christ you must stand to be judged.

Are you ready?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yes, I get that.

God does not care. His judgment will always be fair, so we should not care either because if we have faith, we will know that. It does not diminish the very real sorrow those people who could not mourn their relatives felt though, and that's a hard lesson to absorb and the point that was attempted to be made -- Our judgement is imperfect like everything else we do (hint); God's is not.

a reply to: ketsuko

Have faith in what?

The text is not talking about how people mourn that is an error.

Our Judgment is perfect i.e.our being judged, as I made no mention of our judgement as in thought or process. remember we canjudge all thing yet we are judged of no man.

1Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

So the judgment of your faith is either perfected in Christ Jesus or the judgement of your works is Perfect in Almighty God. In this age, the church age, the later one leads to the second death.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

It's about taking comfort in the knowledge that God sets all things right eventually. This world is not perfect, but the next one will be and we have faith in Him, we should have faith in that. We will not know exactly what perfect will look like, but we should know it will be right and righteous and of Him.

a reply to: ketsuko

No it is not. And I will leave it at that.

And any faith not placed in the finished work of Christ is a death nell.