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Ex-Boyfriend Kills ex-girlfriend and her Baby, but Murder Of Baby Not a Crime in NY

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posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: ElectricUniverse
The charge would have been assault in the first degree.

Without any prior brushes with the law, a judge must sentence you to no less than five years in prison and no more than 25.


The minimum sentence would still be greater that the maximum sentence for second degree abortion which, according to this is:

Because abortion in the second degree is a class E felony, if you are convicted you could be sentenced to up to 4 years in state prison.


And since they arise from the same act they run concurrently so the criminal would not be serving any more time either way.

Your appeal to emotion in the last 2 paragraphs of your post doesn't change the fact that dropping the abortion in the second degree doesn't make a difference in this case.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 05:14 AM
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originally posted by: Ahabstar
Simple solution: Take him out back and put a gun to his head as per normal and post-date his execution to a date of when he would be a fetus. That’s how you fix the problem.





Just take them rascals out in the swamp
Put 'em on their knees and tie 'em to a stump
Let the rattlers and the bugs and the alligators do the rest

CDB Simple Man



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 06:05 AM
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originally posted by: a325nt

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: a325nt
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Was the father the guy with the knife?

Maybe he chose life in prison over a life of forced labor in the form of child support?

I feel like this story is missing important details.


Wow...are you a hard-core criminal whom for some reason keeps wanting to make more inane excuses?... Not wanting to pay for child support is for you an okay excuse so you can beat up/assault your girlfriend and kill your unborn child?...

In real life not wanting to pay for child support is no excuse to beat up/assault your girlfriend and to murder your unborn child...



Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not supporting abuse or murder, I'm asking questions for context.

I have seen more lives ruined by child support laws than murder, though.


There shouldn't have to be child support laws.

Be a man and support your kids. Simple.

If you don't agree with that, don't bother replying.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 06:08 AM
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originally posted by: Ahabstar
Simple solution: Take him out back and put a gun to his head as per normal and post-date his execution to a date of when he would be a fetus. That’s how you fix the problem.


Yes.




posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 07:10 AM
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originally posted by: MykeNukem

originally posted by: a325nt

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: a325nt
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Was the father the guy with the knife?

Maybe he chose life in prison over a life of forced labor in the form of child support?

I feel like this story is missing important details.


Wow...are you a hard-core criminal whom for some reason keeps wanting to make more inane excuses?... Not wanting to pay for child support is for you an okay excuse so you can beat up/assault your girlfriend and kill your unborn child?...

In real life not wanting to pay for child support is no excuse to beat up/assault your girlfriend and to murder your unborn child...



Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not supporting abuse or murder, I'm asking questions for context.

I have seen more lives ruined by child support laws than murder, though.


There shouldn't have to be child support laws.

Be a man and support your kids. Simple.

If you don't agree with that, don't bother replying.


They're not your kids if the mother takes them from you.

When the mother lies to the father to get pregnant, then lies to the courts to get custody, flees the state just to do it again with another man, all lives involved are ruined by child support laws.
That's extortion, and it's the number one use of child support law.
So far I'm not seeing any context on this murder on the motive, so I'm keeping an open mind that maybe this guy was trying to defend himself from extortion.



If you're not willing to see these laws for what they're worth, why are you making an argument over them?
Two can play that game, but I'd rather see the full picture before taking sides.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 07:47 AM
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Well, if the Bible offers any guidance here:



22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


Apparently, Biblically, feticide is a property crime resulting in a fine paid to the father (not the mother). This is probably due to the fact that the Bible teaches very plainly that a fetus becomes an infant person when it takes its first breath after being born.

This is also supported by interpretations of the Old Testament by Jewish Rabbis according to their traditions:



The Talmud, a two-part Jewish text comprised of centuries worth of thought, debate and discussion, is also helpful when discussing abortion. The Talmud explains that for the first 40 days of a woman’s pregnancy, the fetus is considered “mere fluid” and considered part of the mother until birth. The baby is considered a nefesh – Hebrew for “soul” or “spirit” – once its head has emerged, and not before.

Rabbi Elizer Waldenberg, a leading authority on Jewish law who died in 2006, wrote in Tzitz Eliezer, his major text, that "it is clear that in Jewish law an Israelite is not liable to capital punishment for feticide. ... An Israelite woman was permitted to undergo a therapeutic abortion, even though her life was not at stake. ... This permissive ruling applies even when there is no direct threat to the life of the mother, but merely a need to save her from great pain, which falls within the rubric of ‘great need.’”
(Source )

I guess we'd have to say that the New York statute, by decriminalizing feticide, is merely following the teaching of the Bible. New York's "Reproductive Health Act" legalizes all abortions through 24 weeks, and makes legal abortion after that a matter of medical need as determined jointly by the woman and her healthcare provider.

Which agrees with current US statue and Supreme Court ruling ... so, the assault charge for the boyfriend makes perfect sense.
edit on 27-12-2020 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 07:51 AM
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Pro Life Idea: Let's work together to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. Let's have a medical health based approach that emphasizes contraception, support for the expectant mother, and a better system of State care for children.

Let's get rid of the need for abortion as much as possible rather than taking a woman's right to the autonomy of her body from her by statute.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 09:03 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: ElectricUniverse
If I'm reading the law correctly, it makes no difference.

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 70.25 Concurrent and consecutive terms of imprisonment

2. When more than one sentence of imprisonment is imposed on a person for two or more offenses committed through a single act or omission, or through an act or omission which in itself constituted one of the offenses and also was a material element of the other, the sentences, except if one or more of such sentences is for a violation of section 270.20 of this chapter, must run concurrently.


He would have been serving the sentence for the second degree abortion at the same time as the one for murder, so it would not add any time to his sentence.


You remind me of a holocaust denier. First they claim "there was no holocaust," then when they can't refute facts they just keep moving the goal post. From claiming ""the holocaust didn't cause the murder of over 6 million Jewish people" to lowering the number, or increasing it as they keep on moving the goal post just to deny what they truly are.

You are just another "nazi" that devalues the most innocent human life and you try to use "logic", just like hitler and the nazis used it to justify the murder of innocent people...

In fact, every world dictator, and every mass murderer have all used "logic" in their minds to justify the murder and mass murders they caused...





edit on 27-12-2020 by ElectricUniverse because: add and correct comment.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 09:12 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
Pro Life Idea: Let's work together to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. Let's have a medical health based approach that emphasizes contraception, support for the expectant mother, and a better system of State care for children.


Point 21 of the nsdpa:

...
The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

You keep on sounding more and more like the people you claim others are...


originally posted by: Gryphon66

Let's get rid of the need for abortion as much as possible rather than taking a woman's right to the autonomy of her body from her by statute.


A woman doesn't have two heads, & 4 arms, & 4 legs, &, 4 lungs, & 2 hearts, & 2 different dna matrices, etc...

Democrats in the 1800s also thought that "slaves were not people, but were their property and they could do whatever they wanted to their property."

The unborn has a dna different from the mother as it is a combination of the dna not just from the father and mother, but even dna from their grand-parents, great-grandparents, etc...

An unborn child could have the blue eyes of her grand-mother meanwhile the parents could have green eyes, or brown eyes...

An unborn child could be born black but have two white parents, yet one of the grand-parents was/is black which makes the unborn child different from both the mother and father.

An unborn child is another human being. One which people like you have decided are not human and don't deserve to live.




edit on 27-12-2020 by ElectricUniverse because: add comment.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 09:17 AM
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a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Yet, religions and legal systems from time immemorial have acknowledged that a fetus is not legally a human being.

I am against abortion. I find it horrifying and barbaric. I wish it were never medically needed or used as a birth control method.

I also believe that our bodies are the fundamental thing that we own and have governance over. I am against any State declaring that any woman is a slave of the government, which is what happens when the state interferes in the provision of medical services like abortion. It is a matter for the woman herself and her healthcare provider ... and no one else.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 09:28 AM
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So if someone attacks a person and kills them because of their skin color you get extra time added to teh charge for hate crime laws... but kill an unborn baby and crickets, we must be devolving..



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 09:37 AM
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a reply to: Irishhaf

As someone pointed out, before the RHA was made law in New York, the penalty for second degree abortion would have run concurrently with the sentence for murder... resulting in the same punishment the criminal would have received now.

To me, the change in the legal meaning of feticide makes the laws consistent with each other. Also, even before the passave of the new law, legal abortion was noted as an exception to feticide.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Yet, religions and legal systems from time immemorial have acknowledged that a fetus is not legally a human being.


Actually you are wrong. in the bible Elohim/God says he knows us even before we are born. Meaning he knows our souls and what we would, or could become if given the chance to live.


originally posted by: Gryphon66
I am against abortion. I find it horrifying and barbaric. I wish it were never medically needed or used as a birth control method.


And there are doctors, including former abortionists, that say there is no medical need to abort a child, and in the third trimester it is in fact more likely that the mother could suffer irreparable damage, including becoming infertile or worse death, if an unborn child is aborted on the third trimester.





Would you rather the state decide that human life, aka being human doesn't give you a right to live, or would you rather the state/government decides that all human life deserve to live?...

If you think it is best that the state/government decides when a human life has "the right to live," the same excuse can, and has been used to murder other innocent human lives by making other excuses to justify the murder of those innocent human beings.

"Table Talk" page 4:


...Without doubt, man is the most dangerous microbe imaginable. He exploits the ground beneath his feet without ever asking whether he is disposing thus of products that would perhaps be indispensable to the life of other regions.
...



3 Night of 11 th-12 th July 1941
...
At the end of the last century the progress of science and technique led liberalism astray into proclaiming man's mastery of nature, and announcing that he would soon have dominion over space. But a simple storm is enough—and everything collapses like a pack of cards!
In any case, we shall learn to become familiar with the laws by which life is governed, and acquaintance with the laws of nature will guide us on the path of progress.
...




Sparta must be regarded as the first völkisch state. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more human than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject. Adolf Hitler

www.goodreads.com...


originally posted by: Gryphon66
I also believe that our bodies are the fundamental thing that we own and have governance over. I am against any State declaring that any woman is a slave of the government, which is what happens when the state interferes in the provision of medical services like abortion. It is a matter for the woman herself and her healthcare provider ... and no one else.


Yet you are giving, or want to give, power to the state to determine when does a human being "doesn't deserves to live." Which could be used, as it has been used, to justify infanticide and genocide.



Abortion and infanticide (169) - Birth does not mark a special point in the development of an infant's interests. Therefore, in situations where late stage abortion is justified, early stage infanticide is also justified. We reel from this thought for historical reasons rooted in Christianity that are irrelevant to ethics.
...

abinitioblog.com...


The most dangerous man in the world

He's a philosopher who eats no meat or dairy and thinks we're no better than animals. In fact, he thinks a chimp has more right to exist than a person, and that killing babies can be justified. He is hated and feared for daring to challenge the sanctity of human life, Kevin Toolis on the controversial philosophy of Peter Singer

He is a Nazi, a reincarnation of Hitler's deputy Martin Bormann, a baby killer, a philosophical hypocrite, and an enemy of civilisation. He even wants to get rid of the Ten Commandments. He has been howled down in Germany and denounced as "Professor Death" by the Wall Street Journal. His appointment has become an issue in the US Presidential election. His very presence on American soil has been greeted by blockades and boycott campaigns from disabled-rights groups, Christians and good old-fashioned liberals. He is also a bespectacled, softly-spoken 53-year-old Australian with wispy hair and bad dress sense. His name is Peter Singer and he is, in the words of his enemies, "the most dangerous man in the world today".
...

The most dangerous man in the world

Even Peter Singer has acknowledged that the argument for abortion can be used to justify not just infanticide, but also genocide.

This same argument has led monsters to commit the most heinous crimes against millions of innocent human beings, and in their minds "by the use of logic" they were justified.




edit on 27-12-2020 by ElectricUniverse because: add and correct comment.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 10:04 AM
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a reply to: ElectricUniverse

If you're quoting Psalms, actually, the speaker is assumed to be David.

I quoted the Bible that makes the penalty for feticide clear; it was a fine.

I quoted what Judaism and Rabbis understand about the Old Testament, and since their people composed it according to the stories, perhaps they understand it better than others.

There are doctors who say that thinking really hard will cure cancer as well; there are many doctors who are full of $&!%.

As regards your massive off-topic quotes. TL; DR.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 10:43 AM
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originally posted by: a325nt
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Was the father the guy with the knife?

Maybe he chose life in prison over a life of forced labor in the form of child support?

I feel like this story is missing important details.




How sick to compare child support as life of forced labor.I am sure you have heard
about this medical procedure called a vasectomy? If you don't want a life time of
debt for a baby,get snipped! But to murder a pregnant woman just to get out of
child support payments is going too far.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: a325nt

I am a mother who didn't get a child support check until my
"child" was 25 years old! I NEVER went after the creep who
got me pregnant for child support.I didn't want to have him
in my life.One of his ex-wives filed for back child support and
I had an old claim and I got the support she tried to get.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 12:18 PM
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originally posted by: CopeLongCut
I'd like to see the actual NY criminal law, something NY Official at least, instead of twitter links.


This is the real law.

It was one of the most radical abortion laws in the country when it was passed a few years ago. It allows abortion right up to the moment of birth, and part of the law was to remove the criminal provisions specifying that if you murdered an unborn you could be prosecuted for the that death as well.

It is intellectually consistent. If you are saying an unborn is not a human, then it can't legally be a human, even if it's parents want it and think it is. Ergo, the murder provisions had to go to in order to support the justification for the extreme late term abortion.

And this is the logical and tragic consequence of the law -- here you have a woman who was pregnant, wanted the child, and now has to watch the sicko who murdered it serve next to nothing because he merely performed an abortion on her.
edit on 27-12-2020 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: ElectricUniverse
What a weak rebuttal.

The truth is that the guy isn't going to spend a day less in prison because the second degree abortion was dropped. That is all I said and there has been no goal post shift from there.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 05:00 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Opinions vary. The people of New York have the right to set their own laws as long as they don't try to countermand our Constitution. The Reproductive Health act 2019 actually clarified a lot of long lasting legal issues.

Up to the 24th week, abortion is up to the woman. That's the law of the land now. After the 24th week, abortion has to be in consultation with a medical professional. That is also the law of the land now.

New York passed these laws because of the nationwide assault on reproductive rights.

You're misrepresenting the situation in my opinion. Under the RHA if an attack resulted in the death of a fetus the charge would be first degree assault. If it resulted in the death of the mother, it would be murder. It would not be treated as if the assailant just "committed an abortion on her."



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 06:07 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: CopeLongCut
I'd like to see the actual NY criminal law, something NY Official at least, instead of twitter links.


This is the real law.

It was one of the most radical abortion laws in the country when it was passed a few years ago. It allows abortion right up to the moment of birth, and part of the law was to remove the criminal provisions specifying that if you murdered an unborn you could be prosecuted for the that death as well.

It is intellectually consistent. If you are saying an unborn is not a human, then it can't legally be a human, even if it's parents want it and think it is. Ergo, the murder provisions had to go to in order to support the justification for the extreme late term abortion.

And this is the logical and tragic consequence of the law -- here you have a woman who was pregnant, wanted the child, and now has to watch the sicko who murdered it serve next to nothing because he merely performed an abortion on her.
Wait a second here. I didnt say anything about the unborn being not a human. All I asked for were some official links. That is all




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