Taiwan was DUTCH before it was ever Chinese-ruled

a reply to: Gothmog
Fine. I have no quarrel with any of that.

a reply to: M5xaz

What are you trying to prove?

The only factual historical record you are basing evidence off is what Europeans recorded.

The fact is, life before the Dutch was a thriving island. The Portuguese actually "discovered " the island. And said there was regular trade between the main land china and Taiwan.

The fact still stands, taiwan was colonized by the Dutch. Nothing more.

a reply to: strongfp

Taiwan was part of Japan until 1945.
Last I checked, Japan is not European.

China has NO claim on Taiwan.



You may be OK with justifying totalitarian China communists making a false claim to take over DEMOCRATIC Taiwan.
Most people are not.

a reply to: schuyler


The Taiwanese people have NO desire to be taken over by Chinese communists.

You double down on your ignorance by comparing it with the Falklands, saying it should be ruled by Argentina. There are NO Argentinians on the Falklands and the English people there, who have been there 200 years, have already democratically voted on staying British.

a reply to: M5xaz

China didn't exist back then as we know it today. Nice try.
Still not Dutch.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It would all depend on how China planned to invade, I personally wouldn't commit ground forces until the island is secure. China's military logistics and organisation skills apparanty leave a lot to be desired.

They have the edge when it comes to the homeland though and Taiwan isn't all that far. I'd also ask how distracted can US foreign forces be? The obvious moves would be to knock out major Asian bases and harass support. Pearl Harbor was a great example of how to end projected power without necessarily sinking full fleets. The battle for the Atlantic showed the world how you don't need a navy to devastate naval power.

I don't see a near future of US projected power being downgraded and China's future still looks prosperous. I think China would prefer a lot more time given the circumstances, in a lot of ways China is like Germany leading up to the 20th century, given time they'll have their 'dreadnoughts'.

a reply to: RAY1990
I don't quite understand your first paragraph. How exactly do you secure the island without ground forces- the proverbial "boots on the ground"? Can an area be secured by air cover alone? Or are you thinking of a coup by the Fifth Column?

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: DISRAELI

It all depends on how far those carrier fleets are.

There is always one Carrier Strike Group based in Japan. When "tensions are high" there are up to three Carrier Strike Groups sufficiently close in the area.

China knows this, it's had egg on it's face a few times in recent history. I'd personally rely on such things if I were them. I don't think China has real ambitions of a blue-water navy, not a traditional one anyways.

It's all about eyes and ears.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Seige warfare.

It's perfectly within range for that kind of warfare, missiles alone should be able to silence any counterstrike Taiwan or initial American forces could muster.

Ground forces would end in huge war violations, I'm not sure China would be that dumb to ensure the wrath of the world upon it.

a reply to: RAY1990
Thank you. I've got it now.

originally posted by: schuyler
Tell that to the Native Americans (who are not "native." They just got to North America a few thousand years before the Europeans. How many thousand is disputed, but it hardly matters.) The plain fact of the matter is that 1.4 BILLION Chinese think Taiwan is China's. The fact that 24 million people dispute that doesn't matter. If the United States hadn't drawn a line down the Formosa Strait, China would rule Taiwan today just like Argentina would rule the Falkland Islands. And consider the # storm in the Middle East. Iraq, just as one example, exists because the British drew an arbitrary set of lines that did not distinguish between Arab and Kurd. How about the Alsace-Lorraine area? Is it German or is it French? It depends on who won the last war, which is historically always the case. To claim that "Formosa isn't really Chinese" because of some set of "facts" you decide to hang your hat on doesn't mean squat past your own prejudices.

1.4 billion think Taiwan belongs to China? Are you speaking for the whole of China now? The opinion of the Taiwanese people doesn't matter? It seems you have some prejudices of your own on this issue. Also, the issues in other parts of the world aren't relevant to this thread.

I'm going by the latest polls in the Taiwanese media, which is democratic and enjoys freedom of speech. I have no doubt that Taiwanese people would be more amenable to peaceful unification if they were able to keep their democracy. Unfortunately, the state of affairs in Hong Kong has convinced them that peaceful unification is impossible with the CCP in charge.

originally posted by: M5xaz
a reply to: schuyler


The Taiwanese people have NO desire to be taken over by Chinese communists.

You double down on your ignorance by comparing it with the Falklands, saying it should be ruled by Argentina. There are NO Argentinians on the Falklands and the English people there, who have been there 200 years, have already democratically voted on staying British.

You still don't get it. 1.4 BILLION Chinese don't care what you think. Your thoughts on the matter are irrelevant, and you don't get a vote.

originally posted by: RAY1990

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: DISRAELI

It all depends on how far those carrier fleets are.

There is always one Carrier Strike Group based in Japan. When "tensions are high" there are up to three Carrier Strike Groups sufficiently close in the area.

China knows this, it's had egg on it's face a few times in recent history. I'd personally rely on such things if I were them. I don't think China has real ambitions of a blue-water navy, not a traditional one anyways.

It's all about eyes and ears.

They are building aircraft carriers as fast as they can. They can't "beat " the US Navy today, but they are thinking further ahead than that.

a reply to: schuyler

They're big floating tin cans, China doesn't have the eyes the US has as far as we know. Your president let the cat out of the bag when it comes to satellite resolution. They'd be found, from my understanding they'd still be found even if China wiped out US satellites.

China doesn't have the airforce.
They don't have the technology.
They don't have the intelligence.
Most of all they don't have the experience.

That's not a jab at China either because they're catching up fast but they're still 5-10 years away from having effective carrier groups. That's just in terms of functionality. I'm just an armchair general but even I can see the massive flaws in China's wholesale adoption of foreign military doctrines.

They're carbon copying cutting edge tech and tactics thinking it'll match up to equivalents. It doesn't work like that. If things worked like that the US would be building Apollo missions and every other nation with space ambitions would be copying.

China has no real projection, that doesn't change over night. Having the hardware doesn't mean you can use it effectively.

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: M5xaz
a reply to: schuyler


The Taiwanese people have NO desire to be taken over by Chinese communists.

You double down on your ignorance by comparing it with the Falklands, saying it should be ruled by Argentina. There are NO Argentinians on the Falklands and the English people there, who have been there 200 years, have already democratically voted on staying British.

You still don't get it. 1.4 BILLION Chinese don't care what you think. Your thoughts on the matter are irrelevant, and you don't get a vote.

"I" don't get it ?
Check a mirror, sport.

Let me repeat:

The DEMOCRATIC government elected by the Taiwanese people have NO desire to be taken over by Chinese communists.

Or, like a true Biden supporter, you just want tobend over and simply give the Chinese communists whatever they want ?
You getting a payoff from the CCP like Joe Biden ?

Is that you Hunter ?....

a reply to: M5xaz

Lmao you're a cretin.

Stay away from politics it has you thinking anyone who doesn't think like you is a communist. Oh and a Biden supporter to boot.

Get a grip.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: M5xaz

China didn't exist back then as we know it today. Nice try.
Still not Dutch.

Re-read what I wrote, slower...I said Taiwan is not Chinese, or part of China

Taiwan was part of Japan until 1945.
Last I checked, Japan is not European, NOR dutch !

China has NO claim on Taiwan.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: M5xaz

Lmao you're a cretin.

Stay away from politics it has you thinking anyone who doesn't think like you is a communist. Oh and a Biden supporter to boot.

Get a grip.

Never said everyone is a communist.

If you support the Chinese communists, however, news flash, you are a communist.


For a cretin, and an ignorant, illogical one, check a mirror...

a reply to: M5xaz

Japan as we know it today didn't exist either, before the Portuguese 'found' Taiwan. Japan was still somewhat a distanced province of China, as was almost ALL of Asia. There were no 'set' nations but rather provinces all over Asia. It was in constant conflict much like Europe was after the fall of Rome.

China, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. Are rather 'new' in terms of geopolitical borders.

a reply to: strongfp

Did China ever own Japan and other distant nations, no they were different tribes and China did not exist until Qin founded it, before that seven empires or kingdoms existed in what is todays Chinese Heartland following was a series of ethnic cleansings and genocides as the HAN Cemented there place and since then the borders of China have shrunk and swelled on several occasions, history before Qin was sadly mostly lost when he had the historians and other scholars butchered for refusing to lie and rewrite history to his taste.

Japan may have had links to mainland kingdoms on occasion but other than the Ainu the indigenous Japanese whom were there for perhaps well in excess of ten thousand years the Japanse are more ethnically connected to the Korean peninsular.




The AINU may be a pre-mongoloid legacy a remnant of the previous races whom once owned and called the majority of Asia home from before the last ice age until the invasion or tribal migration and settling of the mongoloid people's.

So as you can see the Chinese (Han Tribe) have NEVER owned Japan or indeed many of those other nation's, there are many separate mongoloid peoples within Asia and we only have a clear picture of perhaps the last five thousand years due to genetic analysis and even that is far from clear, findings of such a research would be controversial at best but from what we can ascertain the Chinese or rather mongoloid peoples span from the Inuit peoples of the far north to the jungle peoples of the far east and south of China, they are not a single people however and have many genetic and physical markers proving this and also right across the glove from west to east with the Native Americans that crossed the baring straights being another branch of the mongoloid peoples probably more closely related to the Mongol peoples and Tundra tribes than the likes of the Han though.

During the past two millennia China has been ruled by several peoples but the Han out bred them all and regained control, the Manchu a tall thin race being one, the Mongols being another.

China even paid tribute to the Tibetan Empire for some time, Tibet even rolled it's once mighty army right up to the gates of the Chinese capital and demanded tribute which the Chinese then paid them.


The Tibetans are also neither genetically nor culturally Chinese (until the invasion and destruction of there culture that is and the ethnic cleansing driven sterilization of Tibetan woman and deliberate colonization of the Tibetan Plateau with Han Settlers.