Whatever the outcome of the election, can we all PLEASE just agree on ONE thing?

I want to make a few disclaimers before I write what I want to write.

DISCLAIMERS

* I do not currently trust the integrity of the election results.

* I'm not an American, nor do I live in America.

* I consider myself more right leaning than left.

* I acknowledge that some people (possibly powerful people) do not support the premise of this thread, though the vast majority of people do.

The premise I propose everyone should agree on

I want the highest possible number of people in the world to have a happy life, and I want to minimise suffering wherever humanly possible.

The Rant

I think I really need to start off by saying that 2020 thus far can be considered a write off for happiness for a large percentage of the world, far higher than normal. Covid-19 believing or not, people have suffered. This alone, in my opinion, should have been enough for everyone to just take a breath, find out what we want, and come together to achieve it.

Instead of this, I feel like society by and large has turned more against itself, and forgotten the premise and the human nature to want this that sits behind it.

Other 2020 happenings

The Resurgence of BLM

I believe that the overwhelming majority of people think that preferential or negative treatment of anyone based entirely on the colour of their skin is wrong. But what I've noticed is that this premise has been ignored and substituted for an 'Us vs Them' belief, meaning anyone that doesn't necessarily support the BLM movement no longer believes that people of a different ethnicity should be treated equally, or are too stupid to understand the nuance. This substitute is incorrect, but has become the mainstream now.

Black lives DO matter

So do WHITE lives, so do ASIAN lives, so do HISPANIC lives. But I fully understand that when it is believed that one of those groups is under attack disproportionally and unfairly, then it's important to emphasise or reiterate that a particular race's lives matter.

So I get it. I really do. I fully understand that if a belief of such importance is held, it's important to explore that belief, and if/when supporting evidence is found, and its validated through rigorous discussion, I would be there fighting right beside you for change where needed. The problem with this movement is that rigorous discussion hasn't resulted in validation for everyone, so we're back to square one. Some people believe something, and some people don't. And instead of starting up the discussion again and working through the problem, we've forgotten the notion that the overwhelming majority support equal treatment. As I said, it's been substituted for 'If you don't believe, you're racist or too stupid to understand'. This is a dangerous way of thinking, frankly I've lost the majority of my friends because of it, lockdown in the UK has been miserable for me because of it. That basic level of respect and understanding that most people think racism is bad, has disappeared. But discussion can't even start without that understanding.

Speaking as someone who disagrees with the BLM movement, it's harder for me to point out what must be flaws in my arguments, but I will say this - I think racism is bad, I think not acknowledging and respecting someone's deeply held believes is bad, I take racism very seriously, and where it exists, I support any movement that seeks to extinguish it. You can call that a sort of 'pseudo-support' for BLM if you want.

The Election/Left vs Right

This is the place where the core premise of this thread has been completely forgotten.

Both the left and the right across the western world now accuses the other side of not wanting the best for everyone. Both sides think the other side is nefarious, corrupt, brainwashed, morally superior, and ultimately evil.

This is the starting point for discussion. Cheap point scoring, cheap insults about character, assumptions about the hearts of people you've never met or even talked to. But by far the worst and most alarming part of it that I've witnessed this year is the dehumanisation of groups of millions of people. We ALL know where dehumanisation gets us. I myself have been called a rat, a disease, part of the problem, but I also believe that there are people on the left that may be reading this that have been called similar or the same. Already in extreme cases in the US this has resulted in death, the killing of people we've never talked to, the burning down of businesses owned by people we don't know. This can only stem from the belief that the people we're hurting are evil, don't want us to be happy, want us to suffer, and are subhuman. This is going to continue and likely escalate until we realise the core premise of the vast majority of human kind.

I myself do not think this election was fair, but I do not work on the assumption that people that disagree with me are ignoring the inconsistencies because it favours them. I would hope there are a few people here that disagree with me that could possibly find a way to understand that I do not believe what I believe just because it doesn't favour what I want.

On the first night of the election, I had multiple steams on YouTube going, and on TYT all I saw in the chat was Trump supporters chanting about leftist tears. On the second night of the election, all I saw was leftists chanting about Trumpist tears. It made me sad, ashamed, and made me think about the premise of this thread. How can it be that most people want everyone to be happy and to not suffer, and yet we see people actively enjoying the suffering of others? It's because neither side believes that the other side just wants the best for everyone, so it's okay to do that.

This is the breakdown of society, 50% believes the other 50% wants them to suffer. No meaningful discussion can be had in this climate, no resolutions can be found, and a way forward is not possible. Worse still, the degradation of the basic human consciousness's desire to be able to empathise with other humans will continue.

Conclusion and moving forward after the election (if we get that far)

I want the hatred to stop. I want acknowledgement that we're all wrong on so many things. I want people to remember that the vast majority of people want everyone to be happy, and to not suffer.

We're going to disagree forever, change and progression towards common goals cannot happen without it. But we cannot move forwards without the understanding that the person you disagree with is not automatically evil, or stupid, or brainwashed. I live on the assumption that the person that disagrees with me, ultimately, wants the best for me. It's a principle tenant of western culture that people are innocent until proven guilty.

We simply cannot have gotten this far in society without a shared desire for happiness and the least amount of suffering possible. There have been, and will always be bumps along the way, some more destructive than others, but I personally want everyone to lead a happy life, and to suffer as little as possible.

Can you agree with the premise?

One question for you...

Who is it that is burning s# down, rioting, blocking freeways, throwing bricks and cups of urine and generally being a bunch of colossal assholes?

Otherwise nice (and well written) thread. I probably could have agreed with you if not for my first sentence. But sadly, I can't. I can only find myself wishing doom on them for their selfish, petty and childish behavior.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I know what you're getting at, I really do. But I want to point out if I may, that throughout history the people responsible for this stuff have come from both sides (I don't want to get into the percentage from each side). The point is that anybody is capable of it, and it comes from a genuine belief (however extreme the action stemming from that belief has become) that they're doing something to allow more people to be happy and suffer less in the long run. If you were to ask any of them individually about my premise, they would likely agree with it. The problem is stemming from them believing that the people they are attacking do NOT support the premise. And that's what this thread was an attempt to point out. If only we could remember, or acknowledge that most people abhor racism, abhor corruption, abhor murder.

Appreciate the kind words though.

Yeah, I can agree to that.

Looking at this whole charade from the outside and the sequence of events this year working up to the 3 Nov election DAY!

I am of the opinion that a well orchestrated coup has taken place to remove TRUMPOTUS (which in my view is a disaster for the US, its people and the future!).

The way the election was organized and the huge level of mail ballots, the acceptance of ballots not received by 11.59 pm on the 3 Nov and the continued counting of ballots up until 10 Nov if not longer made the coup easy because it was well planned and executed perfectly to make it look like all is and was above board.

If an official and thorough investigating took place into 3 of the counties in a contentious state checking and validating every vote you would discover how many of those county votes for Bidenistra were fake or doctored ballots and you could apply the % to the state total of Bidenistra's votes and guess what you would find that TRUMPOTUS actually won the state!

Those responsible have had months and months to plan and prepare for this operation feck TRUMPOTUS!

TPTB don't want TRUMPOTUS because he is an obstacle to their plans!

My two pennies.

a reply to: AverageWang

We simply cannot have gotten this far in society without a shared desire for happiness and the least amount of suffering possible. There have been, and will always be bumps along the way, some more destructive than others, but I personally want everyone to lead a happy life, and to suffer as little as possible.

Can you agree with the premise?

I can agree with the premise -- easy peasy.

But we also have to understand that there are many many people who do not agree. People who think they can judge others. People who think they can force their will and ideology on others. People who want others to hurt and suffer for their wrongthink. People who think they deserve it.

I think it's far more important for us to agree on principles of free will and autonomy, and then promoting and encouraging free association and teamwork for the common good. Because people are inherently good, and when given optimal opportunities and resources that provide for their own best interests, they are happy to join with others to achieve their common best interests.

But identity politics, Critical Race Theory, Intersectionalism, cancel culture, and on and on just serves to pit us against one another, to make us suspicious of each other, to judge and condemn entire groups of people, to play the Victim Olympics and fight for most pitiable status.

We cannot force anyone to like us, to be nice or good or anything else. And as long as they have no power over us, and we are free to exercise our autonomy and free will, that's the best we can expect or demand.

However, with our free will protected and guaranteed, also comes our freedom of association and free market principles that reward best practices and punish poor practices with our dollars. We are free to encourage and promote and even reward good behavior in various ways via legislation and regulation (tax laws, incorporation charters, etc.) and via a strong free market.

Give people the chance, under the right circumstances, and they'll do the right thing... the vast majority will at least. And those who won't we can walk away from.

The Resurgence of BLM

BLM has now just become untouchable.

Apparently the Congressional Black Caucas wasn't enough.

Other congressional seats weren't enough.


America just elected a representative from a domestic terrorist group.

www.cnn.com...

Now ponder the ramifications of that of getting along.

Even with our new commie prez.

Racism will continue to be thrown in our faces everyday.

A significant part of his platform was racial,economic,and climate justice.

There is going to alot of crap happening in the new year and following years.

originally posted by: neo96

There is going to alot of crap happening in the new year and following years.

It's going to be tough, I agree with you. I don't want to see violence and more hatred, absolutely stand up for what you believe in. But I believe the only way for it to not end cataclysmically is by remembering my premise, even though at times anger will shine through. If we continue to operate under the assumption that our political opposites are evil, and want us to suffer, then the only just act in our collective mind is going to be violence, as we've seen, as we will continue to see, until we realise what's true of the majority of humans.

I want to emphasise, always stand by your principles, stand up for what you believe in. But we can do that, without assuming evil and intent suffering.

a reply to: AverageWang

Black lives DO matter So do WHITE lives, so do ASIAN lives, so do HISPANIC lives. But I fully understand that when it is believed that one of those groups is under attack disproportionally and unfairly, then it's important to emphasise or reiterate that a particular race's lives matter.

So do Native American lives. We're still here. Thanks.

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: AverageWang

So do Native American lives. We're still here. Thanks.

Is that all you got from my post buddy?

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

One question for you...

Who is it that is burning s# down, rioting, blocking freeways, throwing bricks and cups of urine and generally being a bunch of colossal assholes?

Sh#tbag anarchists!!..if you think the majority of the rioter's vote for ANYONE..I just don't know what to say


The vast majority of the left, are a silent majority, doing the same as everyone else, just trying to live, work, get through this damn year!!

a reply to: AverageWang
Pardon me for being annoyed that my people are always "other", "something else", or just treated like they don't exist.

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: AverageWang
Pardon me for being annoyed that my people are always "other", "something else", or just treated like they don't exist.

Mate, I live in the UK. And there are other races I didn't mention. It wasn't an attempt to name every race. I just named some. Apologies if you feel offended.