Police shooting crazy folk, why this became a thing.

First off, the forum, this is a political issue, or it was before it was just totally ignored. I'll explain.

Some of the older folks here might remember the name of the "crazy hospital" in your area. Here it was Dorthea Dix Hospital. Built in the 1800's and was there for the mental health care of our citizens who needed it. Now, it's bring turned into a lovely park.

If you watch the movie Sling Blade with Billy Bob Thorton, his character was in "the nervous hospital", and got out. I have no idea how accurate the hospital and patients were portrayed, but it didn't look like a pleasant place. I also have a good friend who worked at several state run mental facilities in this area who did maintenance. He has a good many horror stories of things that get broken and the fixes associate with all that.

But it seems in the early start of the millennium, some drastic changes were made. Funding was becoming more of an issue and cuts had to be made.

Next are some articles that explain some of that and "why". None of this is to blame a particular party, I don't think it was malicious in nature, and due to those affected not having much for advocacy, things fell through some gaping holes and never recovered.

journalofethics.ama-assn.org...

Deinstitutionalization as a policy for state hospitals began in the period of the civil rights movement when many groups were being incorporated into mainstream society. Three forces drove the movement of people with severe mental illness from hospitals into the community: the belief that mental hospitals were cruel and inhumane; the hope that new antipsychotic medications offered a cure; and the desire to save money

www.healthaffairs.org...

The failure of insurers and managed care organizations to reimburse providers of mental health services for the costs of care has led to a crisis in access to these services. Using the situation in Massachusetts as a case example, this paper explores the impact of this defunding. Unable to sustain continued losses, hospitals are closing psychiatric units, and outpatient services are contracting or closing altogether. The situation has been compounded by the withdrawal of many practitioners from managed care networks and cuts in public-sector mental health services. Unless purchasers demand effective coverage of mental health treatment, mental health services will likely continue to wither away.

The U.S. surgeon general’s report on mental health resulted in widespread attention to data from the National Comorbidity Survey, which indicated that only 20 percent of Americans with mental disorders—and fewer than half of people with severe mental disorders—receive any treatment for their conditions in a given year. 10 It is difficult to imagine the situation getting much worse than that. But barring effective intervention by those in a position to demand that things change, we are likely to witness an even more unpleasant reality for people with mental illness.
PUBLISHED:SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2003

ajp.psychiatryonline.org...

Published Online:1 Oct 2002
Now for the coup de grâce: with many states facing budget deficits in the current economic slowdown, mental health services and Medicaid—as well as other human service programs used by persons with chronic mental illness—are being targeted, as we speak, for additional cuts

Please note that most of this is 2002-2003 era. After that, things got much worse, then we started using Police to deal with our mental ill patients. They are in and out of jail, hospitals, and cemeteries. (not so much out of the latter)

Young kids (teenagers) learn the system quick. You can go to a short term facility, ask for a specific drug, spend 2 weeks there, then you are turned out on your own. The kids sell the pills, get money, and buy the drug of their choice to self medicate. And they know which pills sell best, and to whom.

We have a genuine crisis on our hands, and it will only get worse.

www.cnn.com...
the other day, a mentally ill man became violent, had a knife. His family did what they could do. Call the cops. Who else do you call?
The cops came, had a crazy guy with a knife threaten them, then lunge at them, and the man was shot and killed. To blame the cops on that for doing something wrong, goes against any and all training these officers received. had they not acted, this man may have lived, but a cop may have died, or several, or perhaps a family member may have died. We can't armchair this one anymore than we can other shootings.

But we can make some changes. We need to focus on the problem of mental health, and when I say that, I mean find a solution for the sick folks to get help, real help. The kind of help that isn't two weeks of drugging them up, then throw them back out into the world.

We have failed these people thus far, it's time to stop being failures.

a reply to: network dude

I have 2 points.

1. Before I jump on the mentally ill bandwagon, I'd like to know what kind of mental illness the victim had.

2. I'm against socialized healthcare but in the case of mental illness, it should be completely, 100% government-run. Many/most mentally ill don't have insurance, it's a financial black hole. The government should foot the bill for treating mental health since there's no way to make it profitable.

a reply to: DBCowboy

No. I do not want the government deciding who is crazy. Please consider an alternate solution.

originally posted by: drewlander
a reply to: DBCowboy

No. I do not want the government deciding who is crazy. Please consider an alternate solution.

Sure, I’m open to any solution!

a reply to: drewlander

They already do, in a legal sense.

Suicide by cop it used to be called.

originally posted by: drewlander
a reply to: DBCowboy

No. I do not want the government deciding who is crazy. Please consider an alternate solution.

The government doesn't have to. It's the care after you are committed.

Folks who are genuinely certifiable are not competent to care for themselves, and they have to be managed in order to retain any degree of stability. But being managed involves institutionalization - 24/7. That means money and resources. Some of them may never be able to be stable enough to move beyond and institutional setting, and again, that means money and resources. But I would rather spend my social welfare money on the people who genuinely cannot do for themselves than on those who simply did not do and refuse to do for themselves because they know the government provides.

as the replies seem to point to, this isn't a simple fix. But I think the solution could be obtained if the good thinkers had some motivation to take this on.

Basic healthcare seems to be equally as screwed up and broken, we've had 10 years to come up with a better option than ACA, and so far, nobody has.

It seems with progress comes regression. Back when I had affordable health care, these facilities still existed.

a reply to: network dude

Unfortunately health care, mental or physical care, is a business. I huge business.

Doctors used to become doctors because they had a genuine desire to provide medical care to their patients, even when they knew that it paid little in the way of dollars and cents. They were lucky to get piano lessons for the kids or a chicken or some eggs.

Most doctors of today enter into the business of medical care. They expect to be well reimbursed for their services. So when you look at all the people who want a piece of the pie, there is only one way to make that work. Without money, you are knee deep in bills, drowning, suffering, or dying.

Mental illness is also a huge driver of the homeless problem and why it will never be actually solved until society accepts that some people are just batsh*t crazy and need to be forcibly institutionalized. They cannot function in society.

I don't really have an issue with publicly funded loony hospitals. I think it would be far cheaper than spending the money on jails and all the other ancillary costs we incur now by not having these people institutionalized.

Police are in an unwinnable situation. I do think cops in the US rely on lethal force a bit too much but unlike other countries, our citizens can be armed so I also feel like the risk here is a lot higher than say in England or other European countries where citizens aren't typically armed.

There aren't any easy solutions

a reply to: network dude

If Congress actually solved problems, they wouldn't have a need to exist and be out of a job.

People are getting tired of it too, so you see where we are at. They either start to push for total control or they continue on the same old road. While the people want less of them.

I used to work in mental health care in the era where extreme cases were often given 24hr, one on one, caretakers. It was a good solution for clients that could be kept in care fairly safely and I think perhaps was a part of the incentive to provide better lives for the mentally ill after the the old institutions were closed.

In the decade since I quit I've watched those contracts be renegotiated with smaller budgets and being handed over to bigger and bigger corporate facilities. The problem with that corporate model is that they group house these people, often unsuitable combos, and with way less staff per client. The staff are also paid barely above minimum wage and there is a high turnover rate which destabilizes some of the clients. The many problems arising from cutting costs and farming out to bigger business are leading right back to the situation with the old mental institutions but as a for profit model.

I also agree that no matter what system a country is, the care of the mentally ill is a government duty as they truly cannot do it themselves. It isn't up to the government to decide who is mentally ill or not. We have kids here with autism and mental illness that lose much of their support the day they turn 19 and unless someone advocates for them they tend to end up on the streets. Severe cases tend to eventually get help but the marginal are destined to spend a life struggling.

a reply to: Edumakated

To some degree, but that's not exactly an easy answer either.

It wasn't so long ago that kids took their rifles to school and no one ever worried about it because no one seriously thought anyone would ever take that gun out of the back of the truck and shoot up the school with it.

What we're seeing is an overall breakdown of civilized society at all levels. Everyone talks about "American values" but no one addresses what "values" really are and what that really means. This is a problem that finds its roots in a lot of places in society, not just with cops, or schools, or the health care system, or even Congress.

a reply to: network dude

You summarize it quite well.

It started in the early 90's with Clozaril. Prior to that the best choice was haldol and respirdol. Each of these cause pretty gnarly side effects, so med compliance was low and the revolving door of mental health was pretty swift. Clozaril worked well, but if you stopped taking it, you wouldn't get put on it again. So it only slowed the revolving door a little.

Then Zyprexa and Seroquel hit the market. These caused remarkable recovery for shizoaffective problems, without the bad side effects caused by the haldol type meds. Patients that I thought would never have a normal life started doing things like going to college, graduating, and starting families.

This decreased the bed demand in mental hospitals, which caused them to scramble. Most public mental health services are earmarked for prisons and jails to off load their people to. Which i don't think is a bad thing. The problem is, when someone decompensates, or when they develop new psychosis, the treatment abilities for them is not there. The expecation is that community services will handle the issue for them in an outpatient setting.

The options now are mostly limited to private hospitals. And with them, once you run out of paid days, you are discharged to create mayhem in the community. Gone are the days where you could camp out the cold winter in a mental hospital, as states just aren't paying for that anymore.

I have one son that has just recently been diagnosed with autism, depression, and adhd. Now add onto that a close to 8 year addiction to benzo's (xanax like drugs). He has overdosed at least 30 times in those 8 years. Totaled about 4 cars. Had a child with a meth head woman when they were both in the throes of their addiction. The mother has abandoned the child and my son's mother is raising that child - thank God.

So he has been without insurance off and on during all of this. And probably has about 50 grand in bills that he will never pay. He is going to court here in about 2 or 3 weeks to deal with all of the dumb things he was involved with many years ago because he broke his probation with a DUI. His life looks pretty hopeless from the outside, but at least - thank god - he is finally sober.

All that being said, getting a depressed, carless, autistic person to work and back and trying to get him oout of my house eventually is a serious struggle. There should be a national tax to deal with this kind of thing. Because one kid can totally ruin a family. I have almost no retirement left tryng to get this guy through life and there is seriously almost no help for anyone in this situation. I would imagine many families after dealing with years of drug addled nonsense actually hope that their son or daughter goes to jail so they dont have to deal with them anymore. It's all very tragic and I think if we started doing something similar to Portugal or maybe the Netherlands, we could really start changing the drug culture issues in this country.

I say get rid of income tax, replace it with flat taxes that are allocated specifically. No loopholes, no write offs, nothing, just flat tax that everyone pays the same rate. Rich, poor, stupid, smart, whatever..

originally posted by: Edumakated
Mental illness is also a huge driver of the homeless problem and why it will never be actually solved until society accepts that some people are just batsh*t crazy and need to be forcibly institutionalized. They cannot function in society.

Totally agree! Many are not rehab material. It's a case of provide for them to protect the larger population. It just needs to be done humanely.

a reply to: Fools

I can feel this pain.

Something that won't help, but im obliged to tell you is that you would not be "the bad person" for distancing yourself from this. It hurts, its hard...but it may be the best way to protect yourself in the long run.

a reply to: Fools

I truly feel for you here. Your son sounds much like me in my early years. Also severe adhd and the above with learning disabilities. Total recklessness. Crashed cars/od'd etc. I put my folks through hell. I wasn't diagnosed til I was 50 and could always be fake functional for short blips of time with my wits and if in the right situation. Diagnosis and meds changed my life.

Don't know how old your son is but take heart in that people with adhd seem to mature slower than average and that one day he may get there.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Fools

I can feel this pain.

Something that won't help, but im obliged to tell you is that you would not be "the bad person" for distancing yourself from this. It hurts, its hard...but it may be the best way to protect yourself in the long run.

He finally spent 6 months in a sober living house and after that moved back in with me, been here I think 3 months. He isn't doing drugs or drinking and cleans up his living area fairly well. Also has been paying me 400 bucks a month for rent. But there is still so much "wrong" with him. They gave him a new anti-depressant that we are picking up today - I am hopeful it will help, but I don't think he will stop being depressed really until he gets through court. Anyway, the kid is a mess. My advice (I didn't raise him btw, only had him 4 days a month and one week in the summer) is that if your kid is showing any signs of drug usage - immediately force them into rehab. Also, if they refuse, kick them out if they are over 18. I finally had to do that - and that is why he went into sober living home. 8 years of being a drug addled idiot burned alot of his bridges and he had nowhere else to go.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
It's interesting you mention Seroquel. I was a big pharma test subject for that in the mid 2000s.

Unfortunately there was no oversight and they tested 1,400mg daily on me by the end of the trial. The way they got me into the trial was because I went into a 3 day watch (turned into 2 weeks because "lost" paperwork) from a mild breakdown I had when a storm knocked down over 100 trees. The U of M told my parents I go on the trial or they take them to court for custody.

I'm still paying for the consequences of that abuse. There has been no follow ups or anything to check on my well being. They even faced a couple lawsuits ( I didn't know about till too late.)

Mental health is big business, people are abused, it's a stigma in any social setting. Try walking into an interview and tell them, you just get a "we'll call you".

Edit: Forgot to mention if interested, Google Minnesota Seroquel Scandal.