A tactical and legal analysis of the Kenosha shootings

a reply to: ontogeny55

it is a well known fact that some ar/m16 rounds tumble when they hit and can cause more than one wound and tissue damage.
my understanding the 55gr more so than the 62gr which was designed to penetrate body armour .

originally posted by: putnam6
It's funny how you can tell who read the whole thing every word and who didn't. It's also ironic how we besmirch the kid having a AR15 on scene but the guy now missing a chunk of his arm had a semi automatic Glock. The words of one of the other "protesters" pretty much said the first victim was trying to get the AR15 away from him after chasing him down, he leaned in while grabbing the gun and thats when he got shot. Everything after that is he has this mob after him,it was totally self defense if they would have just followed him he was going towards the cops and they could have got them to arrest him easily enough.

What I don't get is when the police were so far away I could be wrong but it was like they set up a line and just let the protester's got to town. Have seen that tactic before.

People also seem to miss the fact he was there as an EMT treating the injured protestors just minutes before. He also stated the rifle was for his protection in an interview before the organic fertilizer hit the rotary air movement device. Stupid for being there, but at least he could defend himself.

originally posted by: ontogeny55

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: liveandletlive
There were other shooters, but nothing on vid other than 1 guy firing a shot in the air..who knows. He could have multiple wounds from a single bullet though.

multiple wounds from a single bullet.
sounds like the "magic bullet" from 11/22/1963

Not magic, just common sense. So lets say your hand, which is in front of you, gets hit..where do you think that bullet goes after it goes through the hand..it keeps going into whatever is in path..the body, leg, etc, etc

ETA Kennedy was a weird one, no doubt, due to the changes in angle and such..it's iffy. Here we are just talking through and through.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: DustDoses

The most hysterical part of your comment is that you’re so cocksure of your position that you casually dismiss the eyewitness who was there and was within a few feet of what happened and present your own opinion as if it’s a settled fact despite your opinion coming from a video dozens of feet even further away from the shooting, and even then it’s a camera recording.

That’s some incredible mental gymnastics.

Where does the eyewitness say Rosenbaum made contact with the weapon?

He says he reached for it.

On video he is seen three feet away.

It sure what you're getting at

originally posted by: DustDoses

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: DustDoses

The most hysterical part of your comment is that you’re so cocksure of your position that you casually dismiss the eyewitness who was there and was within a few feet of what happened and present your own opinion as if it’s a settled fact despite your opinion coming from a video dozens of feet even further away from the shooting, and even then it’s a camera recording.

That’s some incredible mental gymnastics.

Where does the eyewitness say Rosenbaum made contact with the weapon?

He says he reached for it.

On video he is seen three feet away.

It sure what you're getting at

Sure Silly, sure.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

it is not a well known fact that 5.56 mm rounds tumble , or what is commonly called keyhole.

if a bullet tumbles, then usually there is something at the exit point of the barrel that is causing that.
an abnormality that perhaps upsets the 300,000 rpm laterally stabilized bullet.

the usual problem is that the person cleaning the barrel does so from the muzzle and damages the exit point of the bullet.

originally posted by: DustDoses

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: DustDoses

The most hysterical part of your comment is that you’re so cocksure of your position that you casually dismiss the eyewitness who was there and was within a few feet of what happened and present your own opinion as if it’s a settled fact despite your opinion coming from a video dozens of feet even further away from the shooting, and even then it’s a camera recording.

That’s some incredible mental gymnastics.

Where does the eyewitness say Rosenbaum made contact with the weapon?

He says he reached for it.

On video he is seen three feet away.

It sure what you're getting at

So if he made contact with the weapon it's all good?
You're sounding quite disingenuous here if that's not the case.

a reply to: DustDoses

It sure what you're getting at

That’s usually how it goes when one makes up one’s mind on a conclusion and then tries to shoehorn events to fit the conclusion one has already decided is correct.

That said, can you explain for the class how you came up with such precise and definitive distance measurements?

a reply to: ontogeny55

it is not a well known fact that 5.56 mm rounds tumble , or what is commonly called keyhole.

it's plain to see you haven't got a clue.did you not read my post?

it is a well known fact that some ar/m16 rounds tumble when they hit and can cause more than one wound and tissue damage.

here a couple of links to educate yourself and maybe you'll quit spewing bull sh@@.

just one manufacturer of TUI ( tumble upon impact) 5.56 rounds,

5.56 NATO SBS® TUI™ - 62Gr Rifle Ammo/Bulk Ammo
by Ft Scott Munitions
$ 25.14 USD
Amazing Accuracy and Terminal Performance
Solid Brass Spun (SBS™) bullet, Non-lead
Multi-Patented Tumble Upon Impact™
Match grade ammunition
Fort Scott Munitions

and their .223

223 Rem SCS® TUI® - 55Gr Rifle Ammo/Bulk Ammo
by Ft. Scott Munitions
$ 24.67 USD
Outstanding Accuracy and Terminal Performance
Non-lead, solid copper spun (SCS®) bullet
Multi-Patented, Tumble Upon Impact™ design
Match grade ammunition
223 Rem SCS® TUI® - 55Gr Rifle

and a ballistics article, 5.56 next to last on page.

This profile is the M855 5.56mm NATO cartridge, with a 62gr steel core FMJ boat tailed bullet @ 3035 f/s. This is a classic fragmenting rifle bullet profile. Penetration is acceptable at 34cm (13.4"). Note the long narrow neck of about 9 cm (4") before the bullet tumbles and fragments. (The length of the neck can vary from 9 cm to about 20 cm depending on impact velocity (one of the reasons for its erratic performance). The original M193 55gr round produces a similar profile but it has a longer neck, and slightly smaller temporary and permanent cavities. Both of these bullets fracture violently at the cannelure at velocities above about 2700 f/s. Below that velocity the bullets may break into several large pieces or simply tumble without producing the extensive permanent cavity, much like the 7.62 mm M80 ball round.
Terminal Ballistics

and keyholing can occur with rounds that are stable while penetrating air, but when they hit flesh and penetrate then start to tumble in the wound. keyholing is also seen in many headshots or where bone is close to entrance wound. look into it.


i always try to make sure i can back up what i say.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: DustDoses

It sure what you're getting at

That’s usually how it goes when one makes up one’s mind on a conclusion and then tries to shoehorn events to fit the conclusion one has already decided is correct.

That said, can you explain for the class how you came up with such precise and definitive distance measurements?

Because not touching means he shot someone who was running towards him reaching.

You can't do that.

If you were the waterboy at a marathon, you couldn't shoot a runner in the head because you had a reason to believe they were going to murder you.

originally posted by: DustDoses

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: DustDoses

It sure what you're getting at

That’s usually how it goes when one makes up one’s mind on a conclusion and then tries to shoehorn events to fit the conclusion one has already decided is correct.

That said, can you explain for the class how you came up with such precise and definitive distance measurements?

Because not touching means he shot someone who was running towards him reaching.

You can't do that.

If you were the waterboy at a marathon, you couldn't shoot a runner in the head because you had a reason to believe they were going to murder you.

How about, if the runner threatened you, said they were going to take your ---- and ---- you up with it? do you suppose that might change things, if this runner was chasing you.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie
i was an armorer in the army and know the m14 A1-4 inside and out.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie
i know what internal ballistics is
i know what transitional ballistics is
i know what external ballistics is
i know what downrange transitional ballistics from supersonic to sub sonic is
i know what terminal ballistics is

originally posted by: ontogeny55
a reply to: hounddoghowlie
i know what internal ballistics is
i know what transitional ballistics is
i know what external ballistics is
i know what downrange transitional ballistics from supersonic to sub sonic is
i know what terminal ballistics is

What is it, y'all are debating, and the context?

a reply to: vonclod

he claimed .223 and 5.56 don't tumble upon impact. i just showed him that some do. now he's having a little whiny baby hissy fit.

a reply to: ontogeny55

i was a Marine, i know both the M16 and M4 quite well myself. i also was taught in the Corps that the design was prone to do that, i was also taught that some were intentionally designed to tumble.

a reply to: DustDoses

This is all wrong

Intent and context matter when determining whether your SUBJECTIVE fear for your life/limb would be considered "reasonable" to the average Joe.

Comes down to Ability, opportunity and intent.

^Heres a few links on deadly force

www.useofforce.us...
ccwsafe.com...

a reply to: DustDoses

“No” would have been sufficient. You doubling down on your position doesn’t explain anything any better. Thanks

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

Then the tumble design is against the Geneva convention.

ihl-databases.icrc.org...

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

how did Kyle get military rounds for the M16/M4 and use in an AR15?
Bound to be a sales receipt for that,
I will wait.