Archeotheology

As inspired by religious stories on my News Feed.

Coincidentally, and seen right before posting, there is another thread on Flood mythos, but instead of hijacking that thread I will still do my own.

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Faith and absolute words are a bad mix. One prone to lockstep indoctrination and uncritical bias.

I define archeotheology as a pseudoscientific approach to, above all, confirming the "above all" and actively ignoring all the "plot holes" with the myth itself.

The oldest written version is Sumerian and involved beer and livestock, The Hindu have one, Plato writes of it, and China's first dynasty (Qin) was founded amid mass flooding on the Yellow River.

As flooding is en everpresent intermittent devastating event for even modern societies they tend to leave footnotes in the oral and written record.

That said, I am increasingly perturbed by the angry veracity the most strict scriptural adherents demonstrate. Not against the parables or the morals therein, but the rigid, absolutely authoritative, and uncritical manner in which they are applied and "proven".

I would like to think the human species has been selected to have a higher capacity for logic and reason..

Keep the myths, can the compulsory literal interpretations... Otherwise you leave people like myself to attempt to play buzzkill with a bit of reductio ad absurdum.

Start with "experts" in this hunt for the "Ark of Truth"

Case and Point: The Torah's version of the flood myth and its literal application.

Story from Fox News via British Tabloid, The Sun.

www.foxnews.com...

Criticisms:

Water Facts:

• If you took all the water on earth, that means all; ocean, fresh, frozen, and falling water, and liquified it on the surface; the sea level rises only 72 meters. That is 1/20th of mile. 236 feet.

• The cubic volume of all that water is roughly 258,174,617 cubic miles. A sphere about 790 miles in diameter if isolated from the rest of Earth.

• The cubic volume of all water on the moon Europa is 678,075,600 cubic miles or about 1090 miles in diameter. Meaning there is almost 3 times as much water on Europa, and the oceans may be up to 30 times deeper than The Marianas Trench in places (at max speculated depth).

Earth/Europa Facts:

Earth volume = 259,883,851,297 cubic miles
Earth diameter = 7917.6 mile
Europa diameter = 1,939 miles

• Europa = Giant ice ball with enough Jupiter-related tidal friction to maintain internal liquid ocean and extreme cryovolcanism. Eruptions will eject liquid water 125 miles above the surface. That's half way to the ISS if applied to earth.

The Mountain

Mt Ararat is a cinder cone volcanic mountain along the Turkey/Armenia border. It is very similar to Mt. Ranier (USA) and Mt. Fuji (Japan) in appearance, formation, and height. Cone Volcanoes often have lore associated with them, but that is a different rant entirely.

It rises out of The Armenian Highlands with a base elevation of 2,700 feet on its North face and 4,600 on its south face.



[The alleged smoking gun on Mt. Ararat - Also known as a geological formation called an "anticline"]

Cited coordinates:

Latitude: 39° 41 59.99
Longitude: 44° 16 60.00
Elevation: 2.8 miles above sea level (14,784)



[The location on Google Earth]

The Diatribe

Why this "brings out the critic" every time Google decides to make me aware of it: there is not enough water on Earth to raise the sea level to even the base, let alone above 14,000 feet. Anywhere on the mountain is preposterous. Even anywhere near that mountain is ridiculous. A spot down near 5000 feet of elevation (if the cited coordinates are wrong) is still a lacking suggestion.

Using topographical data, and assuming all the possible water on earth was somehow in liquid form for just over a month, the closest place with the correct high water mark (of 240 feet) is at the periphery of an endorheic rift basin along the transformation fault boundary of the Anatolian and Arabian plates in Azerbaijan. (See San Andreas and Salton Sink for other example)



It seems like the scripture in one hand completely cancel the part of the brain with logic.

This could've been the end, but I didn't want to stop there. So I went and took all the water from other objects as well..

Still, earth's volume with all Europa's water only equals 260,563,861,297. It increases the diameter of Earth by roughly 4.4 miles.

Assuming equal spread across the surface (not factoring in land gradients) I arrive at 11,500 feet of additional elevation in water from Europa.

* I calculated this by adding the volume of Europa's water isolated to earth's total volume and figuring out the change in radius. Which was only 2.2 miles.

So all the water on earth, and all of Europa's 40-100 mile deep oceans (containing almost 3x the amount of water on earth) will only raise the sea level to around 11,800 feet of elevation.

I'm gonna need a bigger Europa.

How many Europas would you need to validate the movie Waterworld?

Approximately 2.5

Extra

The area between the Tigers and Euphrates Rivers is considered a 5000 year flood plain. On extremely rare occasions cyclones will make landfall in Kuwait at the head of the Persian Gulf. These events are extreme and 3 inches of rain can be devastating.

Archeological excavations (core samples) concluded a massive flooding event such as this took place between 3000-2900 BCE, and it is speculated this is the inspiration for the flood myths of the first civilizations.

Seems like your brain figured out a flood would've been impossible.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
Seems like your brain figured out a flood would've been impossible.

A global flood would have been impossible.

Of course, the young earth creationists will argue that the high mountains of today were formed only during the flood of Noah, and the real "nut jobs" like me will argue that the Earth was smaller in those days. Further, Laz will argue this:

You've got the Earth, which has always had water. However, if the nearly universal flood legends are to be believed, it got a whole lot MORE water at some time just before the historical period. Then, you've got Mars, a planet which apparently once had lots of water, but now has almost none. Photography by probes and satellites shows us huge "outflow channels" but where did the water go? If Velikovsky is correct, and Mars did come very close to Earth, could Mars' water have flooded over to the deeper gravity well? Maybe...

The issue will not be settled anytime soon.

a reply to: TzarChasm

That's "the" assumption

The "conclusion"

It's a lie, it's a myth, folklore, legacy, something of our ancestors to be forgotten.

originally posted by: Degradation33

• If you took all the water on earth, that means all; ocean, fresh, frozen, and falling water, and liquified it on the surface; the sea level rises only 72 meters. That is 1/20th of mile. 236 feet.

Hebrew flood narrative says that water come from beneath as well. These water reservoirs were actually recently found by scientists. The one who led the study himself said:

“We should be grateful for this deep reservoir,” says Jacobsen. “If it wasn’t there, it would be on the surface of the Earth, and mountain tops would be the only land poking out.”
source



There are also fish fossils found on top of the Himalayan mountains, indicating this global flood covered even the highest mountains:



The global flood is discussed by cultures from all across the world, and there is science to support it.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
Seems like your brain figured out a flood would've been impossible.

A global flood would have been impossible.

Many of us feel the same way about the current explanation of Evolution.

a reply to: cooperton

There are also fish fossils found on top of the Himalayan mountains, indicating this global flood covered even the highest mountains:

Possibly...

Or the Himalayas were formed by plate techtonics and MASSIVE uplift. In short, the fossils rode the uplift to summit which use to be the sea floor. Over many millions of years.



The ones in question:

The fossils are Ordovician to middle Cambrian, around 520 to 450 million years old. These dates have been confirmed by analysis of zircon grains of the Yellow Band. The sea floor, or rather the continental shelf, that became the summit of Everest was ancient! It was much older than the mountains themselves

In really crude terms My. Everest was created after India broke off and slammed into Asia. (See Video)

To do examples closer to home, here is Nevada's state fossil. Also a fish.



Brought to such landlocked heights by the Farralon plate's subduction under the North American and creation of Western mountains over millions of years. As one plate dove into the mantle and pushed the other up. Formed much like The Himalayas.


This plate actually still exists in fragments off The US West Coast and British Columbia, called the Juan De Fuca Plate which starts at the Mendocino Tripple Junction off the Coast of Northern California.

Now, for the other argument. From the Abstract of the article posted:

Detections of abrupt decreases in seismic velocity where downwelling mantle is inferred are consistent with partial melt below 660 kilometers. These results suggest hydration of a large region of the transition zone and that dehydration melting may act to trap H2O in the transition zone.

.

The hard thing to do here is explain how in a length of time that doesn't register geoligically, All the water trapped 660 km beneath the surface was on the surface and the quickly went back into mantle..

But that's a cool study, albeit used a tad bit out of context.

a reply to: cooperton

For things to have happened as described in Genesis, that amount of fresh water wpuld have also filled the oceans and killed all sea life and wpuld have made the land inarable for generations. Nothing wpuld have survived on land, sea or fresh water. And then there's the whole incest thing if Noah amd his small family were the only lovong humans. Its a scientific impossibility for a world wide flood as described in Genesis.

a reply to: Degradation33

You do realize you're applying the scientific method to a
being whom by definition transcends the scientific
method 100% absolutely. Good luck applying mans science to
the Creator of the universe. I know if I created the universe and
you tried to apply your puny science to my divine power? I'd do
just as he's doing right now. Not even notice you.

It's really a waste of time you got here.

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: Degradation33

You do realize you're applying the scientific method to a
being whom by definition transcends the scientific
method 100% absolutely. Good luck applying mans science to
the Creator of the universe. I know if I created the universe and
you tried to apply your puny science to my divine power? I'd do
just as he's doing right now. Not even notice you.

It's really a waste of time you got here.

It appears the only one wasting their time is you.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Now isn't that what he meant?

a reply to: cooperton

There are also fish fossils found on top of the Himalayan mountains, indicating this global flood covered even the highest mountains:

That doesn't mean a global flood happened... it means like every other mountain on the planet it was pushed up from plate tectonics... every hill and mountain was once at a much lower elevation... many were under water

OF course religious people will say, "you wern't there how do you know"... i would assume dinosaurs didn't walk up walls like spiderman... though i could be wrong

a reply to: TzarChasm

It appears the only one wasting their time is you.

Not at all. I very much enjoyed myself.

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: TzarChasm

It appears the only one wasting their time is you.

Not at all. I very much enjoyed myself.

Then this wasn't a waste of time at all.

I do hope we see more threads on archaeotheology.

a reply to: Degradation33

I watched the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate not long ago.

For numbers and statistics Bill pointed out that in the proposed 4,000 yrs. after the flood; in order for all the species to evolve from the kinds(Ham's term for which animals were in the ark), there would have to be 110 new species appearing per day, right up to today.

He was like: So there would still be a column in the daily newspapers: Today's 110 New Species

a reply to: TzarChasm

I do hope we see more threads on archaeotheology.

I think that would be just fine if OP wasted more time making
an illogical pointless thread. Maybe OP will have a better
understanding of the faith it takes to believe in nothing rather
than something by then? But I won't be getting into a plss'n contest
with you about it. So take your parting shot.

a reply to: Degradation33

Keep the myths, can the compulsory literal interpretations... Otherwise you leave people like myself to attempt to play buzzkill with a bit of reductio ad absurdum.

Start with "experts" in this hunt for the "Ark of Truth"

Case and Point: The Torah's version of the flood myth and its literal application.

Outstanding analysis and well presented case against the story of the biblical flood. But...

You forgot the most important part: It's in the Bible. And the Bible speaks of God and his great works. Therefore if you grant the entire foundational premise of the bible as being stories of God and his people and God's great works & miracles, you have your answer.

The Bible was caused by God to punish man.

God is not Iimited to just all of the water on Earth. You're applying man's limitations to God.

God can do anything he likes, anywhere he likes, anytime he likes. He can provide as much water as he desires for a flood of whatever size he desires. I mean, he's God for god's sake!

And it certainly seems that God was one pissed off Infinite Creator that day, though - amirite?

Talk about Yowza Yahweh!

Again, if you grant the foundational premise of the Bible.

I hope that makes sense.

a reply to: Riffrafter

which also means he technically could have snapped his fingers and corrected what i thought was wrong... ye know instead of drowning the world LOL

fact is the flood didn't happen... fullstop

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Riffrafter

which also means he technically could have snapped his fingers and corrected what i thought was wrong... ye know instead of drowning the world LOL

fact is the flood didn't happen... fullstop

If you say so.

As far as I'm concerned - it seems that a mythos that spans thousands of years across multiple different peoples and cultures both writing and talking about it from generation to generation, just might have some basis in fact.

Just a little bit.

But on a personal level, I don't give a rat's ass either way.

:fullstop: