Plagiarism and the great flood

originally posted by: one4all

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: Assassin82

It's all in what you choose to believe. As far as the stories in the Bible being rubbish, well, nobody can prove that.

Nobody can prove it’s not rubbish either. It’s a book of mystery and fairy tales based on half truths and corrupted interpretations of historical events.

Yes you can prove the Bible was written based on true reality based history.....as you can prove ALL RELIGOUS DOCTRINES were.

At first I thought this post was sarcasm, but as I read your previous posts/treads, I see that it is just your Truth Feedback Loop personified. Brilliant esoterica!

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: peter vlar

Of course you're right that the story of Noah's flood came after
Cyrus. But Moses wasn't freed by Cyrus.. I did make a mistake there.
But what evidence is there that the Hebrews had a flood story before
Moses wrote the book of Genesis? I believe that's what you're saying.

More to the point, there is copious evidence that Genesis and the rest of the Torah and Talmud were written by multiple authors. There is zero evidence of a written Hebrew account of a flood story until after the Babylonian exile. I stand by cultural diffusion and not different cultures telling a similar story.

a reply to: peter vlar

I stand by cultural diffusion and not different cultures telling a similar story.

Uh hmm of course you do

a reply to: carsforkids

Please feel free to show me one single written work in Hebrew pertaining to the flood myth prior to the Babylonian exile. Even Hebrew scholars have admittws for nearly 200 years that it all dates to the 5th or 6th century BCE.

Can you cite anything showing written accounts of the flood myth from earlier periods? The only written records predating the Babylonian exile are Sumerian. Not a single word of it in Hebrew.

a reply to: peter vlar

My point is that there is no Hebrew story of the flood until Moses.
I'm not even disagreeing with you the way you perceive me to be.

I'm saying the Hebrews had NO story of the flood they (For what
ever reason) cherished for centuries once freed by Cyrus. How
long after Cyrus before the Hebrews were enslaved by the
Egyptians? Then isn't there another four hundred years of bondage
in Egypt before Moses?

So the Hebrews had no Babylonian account of the flood to cherish.
They wouldn't have had anything from their days of Babylonian
bondage would seem more likely to me.. Until Moses writes the
truth of the watered down Babylonian version that does indeed
predate the Torah.

You follow me. I'm sorry if I'm not articulating it very well amigo.
I make no claims to sharpness.

a reply to: carsforkids


I see what you have been trying to get across to me. The only problem is that Moses and the Pentateuch predates the Babylonian Exile. That's the point I was trying to get across. This is acknowledged by Hebrew scholars and Rabbis worldwide. There were 3 deportations of Jews to Babylon between 597 BCE and 581 BCE. Thats a long time after Moses was supposed to have lived and long after the supposed enslavement in Egypt.

a reply to: peter vlar

I see what you have been trying to get across to me. The only problem is that Moses and the Pentateuch predates the Babylonian Exile. That's the point I was trying to get across. This is acknowledged by Hebrew scholars and Rabbis worldwide. There were 3 deportations of Jews to Babylon between 597 BCE and 581 BCE. Thats a long time after Moses was supposed to have lived and long after the supposed enslavement in Egypt.

Forgive me my fine member I simply did not know that. I didn't mean
for you to have to school me on such matters. So I thank you for the
the correction. It sucks when it's been so long from high school,
where I did have an outstanding ancient history teacher. But now it
seems to provide only a false confidence. I'm sure I knew this at one
time. But some how a lack of practice maybe. I got turned around.

BTW I didn't even google your correction. The second I read your reply
I felt myself blush cause I knew you were right. You stay sharp
while I proceed with caution.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: carsforkids


I see what you have been trying to get across to me. The only problem is that Moses and the Pentateuch predates the Babylonian Exile. That's the point I was trying to get across. This is acknowledged by Hebrew scholars and Rabbis worldwide. There were 3 deportations of Jews to Babylon between 597 BCE and 581 BCE. Thats a long time after Moses was supposed to have lived and long after the supposed enslavement in Egypt.

There's a long list of historical incongruence if you compare the Bible with actual documented fact. This is nothing new.

a reply to: carsforkids

No harm, no foul my friend. I appreciate the civil discourse. It's something the tends to get lost in these threads.

It's pertinent to note that much of the remarkable testimony and supernatural events in the Bible bear more than a little resemblance to mythology that preceded Judaism and Abrahamic tradition by thousands of years. This gets explained away by "the son who is his own grandfather" model of 4D chess strategy but that's a little convoluted for my taste.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
It's pertinent to note that much of the remarkable testimony and supernatural events in the Bible bear more than a little resemblance to mythology that preceded Judaism and Abrahamic tradition by thousands of years. This gets explained away by "the son who is his own grandfather" model of 4D chess strategy but that's a little convoluted for my taste.

Hence my continued retort of cultural diffusion over eye witness testimony. Occam and his razor aren't usually too far off base.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
They did not source a 20kya number either. Im not finding anything online.

The flood myth likely relates to the flooding of the Black Sea 7500 years ago.

But was there "The" flood or one of many, throughout time.

a reply to: Spider879

As far as the bible and other similar myths among the progeny of the indoeuropeans... It seems like a single event. The black sea.

Aboriginals have a different mythos. Chinas is in recorded history. The Americas dont have one.

God vs the Leviathan, Zeus vs Typhon, Thor vs Joggurmundr, Indra vs Virtra, Susanoo vs Yamata no Orochi, Marduk vs Tiamat or Anzu.

Earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes, oh my.

a reply to: 727Sky

the last age lowered sea levels around 400 feet,, this forced much of the peoples dependent on sea life for survival to follow new shore lines miles out to sea, which then flooded when the ice melted

a reply to: 727Sky

Its just rinse and repeat mate, quite literally so.

Our Earth moves in epochs you see.

End of the day, its never been about Son worship, but Sun worship.

originally posted by: BobbyFontaine38
a reply to: 727Sky

the last age lowered sea levels around 400 feet,, this forced much of the peoples dependent on sea life for survival to follow new shore lines miles out to sea, which then flooded when the ice melted

Couple of issues here. First, we are currently in an interglacial period amd have been for over 13 KA. Prior to that we were in a glacial cycle that started about 120 KA before present.

So that glacial period, complete with lower sea levels, lasted for just over 100 KA . When the ice began to melt, it wasn't an overnight event or even several months. It was slow and over the course of many years or more likely, decades.

The same holds true 120 KA when water began getting locked up in the growing ice sheets. So it was a gradual move for the people living on or near the coasts, both at the beginning of the LGM and at the beginning of our most recent interglacial period.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Spider879

The Americas dont have one.

To be fair, some indigenous N. Americans have a variation of a flood myth. But there seems to be a direct correlation between flood stories and which Missionaries got to them first. If it was the Spanish who made first contact then you can lay down Amnesty bet without fear of losing it. South West, California, Mexico, Central and South America for example. The Iroquois have no flood stories and their first contact was with the British and French.

Between forced conversions under brutal torture, genocide and destroying as much written work of the Maya the Spanish excelled at their goal. The French and British were more interested in trading partners to help them in their own petty wars. Between the part of the Hundred Years war that spilled over to NY, Quebec and Western New England amd then the Revolutionary War, we managed to all but destroy the Iroquois Confederacy and then displaced all of them. Loyalists not.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
It's pertinent to note that much of the remarkable testimony and supernatural events in the Bible bear more than a little resemblance to mythology that preceded Judaism and Abrahamic tradition by thousands of years. This gets explained away by "the son who is his own grandfather" model of 4D chess strategy but that's a little convoluted for my taste.

This is why I'm a big fan of the Jefferson Bible. It maintains the morality and message of Jesus and skips over all of the supernatural wizardry

a reply to: peter vlar

yeah, i was on mobile and didn't want to explain that all again...so just said they don't have one.

Although the sites in Mexico showing habitation in the 30kya range are pretty interesting. I would have no issue believing that just about all of North America was scoured clean by a flood event unlike anything any flood myth could ever report. Or that the Grand Canyon was much younger, and based in a violent flood event, than we currently report.