Come and See: A Horrifying Look Into the Dark Nature of Man

a reply to: zosimov

Enjoy and share it around as much as you can

www.goodreads.com... “Did you have one of those days today, like a nail in the foot? Did the pterodactyl corpse dropped by the ghost of your mother from the spectral Hindenburg forever circling the Earth come smashing through the lid of your glass coffin? Did the New York strip steak you attacked at dinner suddenly show a mouth filled with needle-sharp teeth, and did it snap off the end of your fork, the last solid-gold fork from the set Anastasia pressed into your hands as they took her away to be shot? Is the slab under your apartment building moaning that it cannot stand the weight on its back a moment longer, and is the building stretching and creaking? Did a good friend betray you today, or did that good friend merely keep silent and fail to come to your aid? Are you holding the razor at your throat this very instant? Take heart, comfort is at hand. This is the hour that stretches. Djan karet. We are the cavalry. We're here. Put away the pills. We'll get you through this bloody night. Next time, it'll be your turn to help us.
"Eidolons" (1988)”
― Harlan Ellison

The best line in the movie to me is ''They drop them and we get the returns'' You know the one. Not sure the Ellison quote even fits here but it is great anyway.

a reply to: zosimov

I think a lot of the 'ill nature' of man perhaps comes from unfortunate circumstances in the past.

Long periods of warring cultures/territories prob give rise to all sorts of sick, twisted, and cruel culture/views and mental states.

Life in general, at the core, is pretty brutal. It is supported by countless creatures that devour each other alive every second.

a reply to: zosimov

It makes one think and think some more true enough. The ending is a happy one IMO and a family yet to come.I am a sap for happy endings anyways and always will be.

Here are the bird nests.


I thought of the nests I spotted when I saw the scene in which the boy stepped on the (stork/crane/heron?) eggs.

a reply to: zosimov

The final scenes raise the most profound questions regarding war that I’ve heard, and done in a way that never seems forced but unrolls naturally from the plot. In short, for anyone (and I’ve seen and heard people talking like this--even here on ATS) who is doing their part to push along a civil war rather than immediately diffuse the situation, this film would be a good watch. Even as man repeatedly mourns past atrocities, we continue adding to the machine grinding out new ones. Will we ever learn?

At about the 02:04:00 mark:
"Yes, I said that 'Come out and leave the children.'
...
'I said that because with the children it starts all over again.'
...
'Not every race has a right to exist.'
...
'Inferior races spread the contagion of communism.' "

So yeah, there are ideologues who think this way. The spokespeople couch these sentiments in euphemisms; saying the same thing but in prettier words. Those fearful of losing privilege or aggrieved over being relegated to common humanity run with it; jump on the band wagon. Thus a force of numbers gives power to an ideology. An ideology of violent necessity.
(see how I use words and sentences, rhetoric, as a distancing mechanism to pull away from the brutality. Better than descending into madness).
------------
The U.S. has many living veterans. One of the veterans groups is called Veterans of Foreign Wars. The name is a give away. Americans know war as something that happens over there. What you can go to and then return from. Those songs that I posted reflect that.

The movie is not about war like that. The movie is about war that comes to you, against your will. And there is no going back home from it. It's in your home.

It is complete madness to wish this upon ourselves.
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I think that is all that I can write about it at this time. These points are very important to think about though.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: zosimov

At about the 02:04:00 mark:
"Yes, I said that 'Come out and leave the children.'
...
'I said that because with the children it starts all over again.'
...
'Not every race has a right to exist.'
...
'Inferior races spread the contagion of communism.' "

This is such a forceful scene. His recitation of this genocidal ideology with the passion of a believer is chilling. The disgust on the faces of his audience is palpable.
Then comes the hardest part for me--what is justice? How could one possibly serve a fitting punishment when even one lost life is at stake? The problem is that there is no earthly justice. To respond to this level of brutality in kind isn't justice. What, then, is?

So yeah, there are ideologues who think this way. The spokespeople couch these sentiments in euphemisms; saying the same thing but in prettier words. Those fearful of losing privilege or aggrieved over being relegated to common humanity run with it; jump on the band wagon. Thus a force of numbers gives power to an ideology. An ideology of violent necessity.
(see how I use words and sentences, rhetoric, as a distancing mechanism to pull away from the brutality. Better than descending into madness).
------------
The U.S. has many living veterans. One of the veterans groups is called Veterans of Foreign Wars. The name is a give away. Americans know war as something that happens over there. What you can go to and then return from. Those songs that I posted reflect that.

The movie is not about war like that. The movie is about war that comes to you, against your will. And there is no going back home from it. It's in your home.

It is complete madness to wish this upon ourselves.
----------
I think that is all that I can write about it at this time. These points are very important to think about though.

Truly. Thanks for posting, very well put.

Also loved the pics of the nests! (that scene was such a brilliant detail to add--I'm just in awe of just about by every single scene/shot in that film)

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist

I haven’t but I imagine it would be closer to Texas chainsaw massacre than saving private Ryan

Somewhere in the middle of the two... The evasion of Normandy was about as insane as you can think of as war in general. (Only thing worst were some battles in the civil war) About 10000 loss in like 1 day in close quarters fighting and maybe another 7 times that in serious injuries. The 55,000 deaths in Vietnam is another unacceptable loss today.

originally posted by: bluemooone2
www.goodreads.com... “Did you have one of those days today, like a nail in the foot? Did the pterodactyl corpse dropped by the ghost of your mother from the spectral Hindenburg forever circling the Earth come smashing through the lid of your glass coffin? Did the New York strip steak you attacked at dinner suddenly show a mouth filled with needle-sharp teeth, and did it snap off the end of your fork, the last solid-gold fork from the set Anastasia pressed into your hands as they took her away to be shot? Is the slab under your apartment building moaning that it cannot stand the weight on its back a moment longer, and is the building stretching and creaking? Did a good friend betray you today, or did that good friend merely keep silent and fail to come to your aid? Are you holding the razor at your throat this very instant? Take heart, comfort is at hand. This is the hour that stretches. Djan karet. We are the cavalry. We're here. Put away the pills. We'll get you through this bloody night. Next time, it'll be your turn to help us.
"Eidolons" (1988)”
― Harlan Ellison

The best line in the movie to me is ''They drop them and we get the returns'' You know the one. Not sure the Ellison quote even fits here but it is great anyway.

I'd say the quote fits just fine

I love that line/moment in the movie also. Imagine the heart it takes to crack jokes (even cynical humor) at such a time, and we can see the human spirit here in Flyora's genuine laugh. The scene did well capturing another worthwhile topic--the absurdity of war.

I like your optimism and that you're a sucker for a happy ending, and really can see how that scene with Flyora and Hitler's portrait is indeed a happy ending (a win for humanity)--although the viewer knows too that there are still two long years of war ahead.

Thanks for commenting!

The title is fascinating, and particularly when seen both in context:

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelations 6:1-2

And from the viewer's perspective (that we see the events from almost the boy's perspective, but afforded a higher level of understanding than the boy).

This scene demonstrates the above perfectly. We see this shot of the boy




Then we see what he sees (a new level of horror)


Moreover, I shudder when I try to imagine what the Nazi behind the camera sees.

a reply to: zosimov

Then comes the hardest part for me--what is justice? How could one possibly serve a fitting punishment when even one lost life is at stake? The problem is that there is no earthly justice. To respond to this level of brutality in kind isn't justice.

What is Justice?

An ambition perhaps.
A goal to reach for ...
as it moves ahead of us,
faster than two bare feet can catch.

The song was inspired by Cockburn's visit, sponsored by Oxfam, to Guatemalan refugee camps in Mexico following the counterinsurgency campaign of dictator Efraín Ríos Montt.[1]
...
In the song, Cockburn despairs of waiting for a political solution to the crisis, and expresses the desire to take matters into his own hands. Each verse ends with a line stating what Cockburn would do if he had a rocket launcher: in the first verse, "I'd make somebody pay". In the second, "I would retaliate". In the third, "I would not hesitate". The fourth and final verse ends with the song's most famous and controversial lyric: "If I had a rocket launcher, some son-of-a-bitch would die".

In a later interview, Cockburn stated that the song "is not a call to arms; this is a cry."
If_I_Had_a_Rocket_Launcher

a reply to: pthena

Great answer, and great song.

I think I could be okay with seeing justice (in a perfect form) as a goal for which to strive rather than anything tangible.
(I'd never heard that song before. Thanks for posting)

a reply to: zosimov

There is some bad news about the bird nests.
I've been hesitant to add to the horror of this thread.

but

The house where I stay is going to get painted in a few days.

I asked my son in law to use the ladder to inspect the nests. Two were unfinished. The biggest one had a bird in it. It flew out, startling him a bit. Then he (male) landed on the neighbor's stair railing. A very short distance away, because the houses are very close together. He (the male wren) started interrogating us:

Where are the females?
Where are the females?
I built the home.
Where are the females?
Where are the females?

(that's a rough translation. birds have limited vocabulary, lots of extrapolation needed)

There are three cats who stalk the neighborhood. There were many wren in the yard just a couple of days before I found the nests. They are actually located in a very safe place, where cats can't reach. I can't find a safer place to move the nest to for painting. Maybe academic since the females are gone.

For reference:

House Wrens are known to build nests for their mates. They show the females the nests and let her choose. Then the male finds another female to occupy one of the remaining nests.
Bird Behavior: Courting & Mating

The cheep translated as female could have been wife. But that would have implied a higher level of sophistication, not to mention the added pathos. Best stay with female.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist

I haven’t but I imagine it would be closer to Texas chainsaw massacre than saving private Ryan

Somewhere in the middle of the two... The evasion of Normandy was about as insane as you can think of as war in general. (Only thing worst were some battles in the civil war) About 10000 loss in like 1 day in close quarters fighting and maybe another 7 times that in serious injuries. The 55,000 deaths in Vietnam is another unacceptable loss today.

Someone hasn't heard about the battle of somme.

originally posted by: LocalGenius

Someone hasn't heard about the battle of somme.

Was mostly replying about "saving private Ryan", but yes nasty stuff too. Battle of Gettysburg was over 50k in two days.

A wonderful discussion that shows a different approach to one another:

a reply to: zosimov

I couldn't sleep last night,
for memories and images surfacing.

In around Sept of 1990, after Iraq had annexed Kuwait and U.S. forces were starting to assemble; My partner and I were doing our usual commute in our loaded down work truck.

The route we followed led us through Aqua Dulce, CA. One of those things that just happens from time to time resulted in the right rear wheel breaking loose. We got the truck off the highway as best we could. Due to the mostly non-existent shoulder, the truck was mostly in the ditch.

So I looked around for a house from which to bum a phone call, and spotted one at the end of a narrow dirt drive directly across from the truck.

It's of some importance to note that Tony Alamo wasn't national news yet. All that I knew about him was from a flyer we found in a nearby restaurant a couple of days earlier. It was a public relations piece ( aka propaganda ); in which was printed quotes from several newspapers. A couple of quotes from city mayors; a couple of quotes from a city councils; about what a wonderful blessing it was that Tony Alamo was helping the at risk youth from those cities.

The rest of the flyer was a description of how bad people were slandering him and how the FBI and IRS were persecuting him. Pretty standard propaganda.

Well, it turned out that the house was the ranch house for Tony's property there. This I found out after knocking on the door. The door didn't open right away. I heard whispers back and forth from inside. Eventually, the door opened just a crack.

I'll skip the drawn out conversation. The gist of it was that the children in the house had been told by their leader that The Government was out to get them and they weren't to open the door for any reason. You may well imagine how long it took for me to convince him, the oldest, that I was not any threat to them, and was just a random passer-by whose wheel came off, and I wasn't asking for anything except the use of the phone.

I wrote some stuff earlier and will just do a copy paste.

I've just got to tell part of this before I stop.

It's about hope and tragedy.
The human spirit, pride, and dignity.

There were five or six of them, the oldest and bravest, a boy of about 15.
The girl about 9 or 10 who gave me a glass of water or lemonade, I don't remember which.
The girl about 7, sitting cross legged on the floor, couldn't move for fear, stared at me with big brown eyes.
Two or three others walked about aimlessly in the background, never looking up.

After I finished the phone call, I turned around and smiled at the 7 year old. She didn't move, didn't even blink her big staring eyes.

The brave boy then brightened up, asked "Would you like me to show you around?"
"Sure" I replied, "It'll be about 45 minutes for my ride to get here."

The place was an old run down chicken ranch. He showed me this thing here and that over there. Then he straightened up, held his head up, even stuck his chest out a bit. And proudly declared, "We're going to convert this coop into a bunkhouse."

So there it is, the human spirit! "We're going to convert this coop into a bunkhouse."

--------------------

It wasn't until a few years later that Tony made national news.