Over-flattening the curve only prolongs the suffering and prevents herd immunity

a reply to: DaRAGE

I just want people who go around saying words like "lets get herd immunity" and "lets open up for the sake of the economy"... I went these people to get infected, go visit their Grandparents (or elderly parents)...

You just labeled me to a tee. I’ve had it. I’ve also seen my 70 year old father with serious respiratory issues, just about every day. He’s doing great. In fact he’s flying to Oregon tomorrow, to see a good friend dying of cancer.

Life goes on.

I’m tired of all the conjecture. Use real world examples dude.

I think what we are seeing is corporate marketing overtaking actual science.

The motivations are probably varied, but has elements of control, profit, and dependency.

Very, very few look at the actual science on any of this. And, even if they do, even fewer look into the science that existed before all of this. The education system has utterly failed, perhaps intentionally, to teach things like making inferences, examining methods, and being appropriately critical.

On the positive side, we are learning a lot about these things. Of course, most is squashed if it doesnt fit the Narrative.

We are learning that antibodies are only a part of immunity, and may not even be the most important. We are learning more about how cross-immunity works and how vaccines can have the opposite result: virus interference. We are learning that 50-80% of exposed individuals are simply non-susceptible, (so community immunity pertains to the *remaining* percentage) and on and on..

Yet, the Narrative is still Masks, Lockdowns, and Vaccines. The unquestioning acceptance of them isnt the result of reason or research.. its fear and blind belief in corporate-political marketing. Frequently with inculcated individuals projecting those inadequacies on everyone else with "ye age olde" qualifiers like "bigot" or "wanting grandma to die."

a reply to: Serdgiam

Very well said, that's exactly what it is, corporate-political marketing and a lack of critical thinking, mixed with people choosing sides based on politics.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Has it been established how long the antibodies last to offer immunity? There have been a lot of reports where people get over it then a few weeks later they catch it again. This isn't one where you get it once then never get it again if the protection period is to short there may never be a natural way to achieve herd immunity.

Good point.

One. There is a problem with the tests. I've heard anywhere from 25 to 60 percent false positives or false negatives. So somebody gets a false positive, gets treatment and a bit later actually gets the virus and that gets reported as "catching it again".

Two. All immunity has a period of time before it goes away. I think the common cold is six months. I remember having to get a second Yellow Fever vaccine when I was in the Navy for just this reason.

Three. The virus changes as it evolves which could reduce the time that you have immunity.

All of this isn't specific to Covid-19. It is the same with all virus borne illnesses.

There may never be a vaccine for this. Do we keep this up forever?

I live in Canada. We heavily shutdown society in an effort to "flatten the curve" and we are experiencing no real second wave. Our numbers are low and decreasing...

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

originally posted by: hombero
I live in Canada. We heavily shutdown society in an effort to "flatten the curve" and we are experiencing no real second wave. Our numbers are low and decreasing...

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

We are already seeing marginal increases in Alberta.

They are going to try a localized monitoring/phasing system this time around, rather than province wide. I am not entirely sold on this, as the stupid tends to extend across county lines, but it is a decent compromise until they find out if this is just a couple local flare ups or a trend in larger growth.

Currently in phase 2, may get rolled back to phase one.

Trust in Hinshaw!

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I think one of the bigger tragedies here is that we could have actually used this opportunity to improve general public health. Something that, if addressed properly, would have reduced all mortality rates completely across the board.. in perpetuity. Thats literally what public health officials are supposed to do.

On one hand, people have never "learned" more about pathogens, illness, and viruses. On the other, the vast majority of those people think all of it is 100% specific to SARS-CoV-2 and covid as some super scary, unique thing.

Frankly, the only anomaly I see in the numbers of all-cause deaths is more likely to be correlated to our approach than any pathogen. Differences in regions, while attributed to the marketed products like lockdowns, are more likely to be the result of everything from diet to pollution. Examining those would eat away at the Narrative, control mechanisms, and profit margins though.

The data trail that results in all these graphs is completely in question as well. Everything from laughably using PCR tests for diagnostics, terribly inaccurate antibody tests (that dont even test for all the factors that result in immune response), and outright fabrication of numbers between counties/facilities & what the CDC and Dept of Health peddle to us.. All create a situation that everyone should be asking damn serious questions about.

Yet, trying to get anyone to look beyond the marketing campaign (much less question it) is akin to trying to convince a Chicago Bears fan that the Packers are the team they should cheer for instead.

a reply to: hombero

It's because Canada is a Socialist Paradise. If only other countries were so awesome.

originally posted by: TheSkunk
Can anyone give an example Where Herd Immunity worked with a virus without Vaccinations?

The historical case is smallpox, where European settlers with herd immunity gave smallpox to Native Americans nearly wiping them out. Same happened to the Spanish as they settled in Mexico and the Caribbean.

slowing it down allows time to first off not stress the hospitals, but also gives more time to come up with more and better treatments.

This mindset of just let everyone get infected asap so we can move on would cause insane amounts of deaths.

a reply to: SaturnFX

This mindset of just let everyone get infected asap so we can move on would cause insane amounts of deaths.

For people with serious pre-existing health conditions.

We’ve got a solution for that — quarantine for those folks.

There is NO STOPPING this virus. Just like we have no cure for the common flu. We will be locked down forever, if we followed your logic.

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: TheSkunk
Can anyone give an example Where Herd Immunity worked with a virus without Vaccinations?

The historical case is smallpox, where European settlers with herd immunity gave smallpox to Native Americans nearly wiping them out. Same happened to the Spanish as they settled in Mexico and the Caribbean.

Wasn't smallpox either you lived through it or died from it. If you lived you had a lifetime immunity from then on. There is a disagreement on how effective and how long immunity is from getting over COVID, but no one so far has claimed with evidence that it is for life.

While I agree that Smallpox is a good example of how natural herd immunity works it doesn't match with COVID 19. Measles is another one that you gain a lifetime immunity to after having it once.

I think any talk about natural herd immunity to COVID 19 at this point is premature. We need to know if it is even possible. We do not know how long the antibodies will last or if they will even be effective. If indeed as another poster said the virus has mutated to bypass any natural immunity from having the prior version we may as well forget about herd immunity. That is a nightmare scenario I don't want to think on much.

a reply to: Grimpachi

We know it's likely because loads of people have already had antibodies develop, after getting COVID and unknowingly have their immune systems fight it off. Early on in Chicago, they did testing on hospital patients and almost 40% had antibodies already.

www.dailywire.com...


At a hospital in Chicago, a non-randomized sample found that 30-50% of patients tested for COVID-19 have antibodies in their system, suggesting they already had the virus and have potential immunity.

“A phlebotomist working at Roseland Community Hospital said Thursday that 30% to 50% of patients tested for the coronavirus have antibodies while only around 10% to 20% of those tested have the active virus,” Chicago City Wire reported Thursday.

but this doesnt fit one sides narrative so it's ignored. Here in Georgia the left is flummoxed because cases are increasing rapidly but mortality rates are not

a reply to: SaturnFX

Try actually reading the thread before commenting, I've already discussed all the points you made.

a reply to: putnam6

I know people have the antibodies I stated that in my first post here. What we do not know is how effective they are. Do they provide immunity or just a measure of help. As I stated before there have been reports of people being reinfected. Those could be true reinfections or they could be the result of false positives it is more likely to be a combination because some of them were hospitalized and had recovered only to come down with it agin weeks later. That brings into question of what is the window of imunity or if it even exists.

but this doesnt fit one sides narrative so it's ignored. Here in Georgia the left is flummoxed because cases are increasing rapidly but mortality rates are not

I have been paying attention to Florida. Cases have increased as well as a slight uptick in deaths. Today has thrown that all out of wack. 120 deaths a new record. The previous record high was back on April 28 with 83 deaths and that was coming off the weekend delay of reporting deaths. Mondays and Tuesdays usually have spikes but here it is Friday and we have a huge spike. The second-highest number this week was 63 for reference.

To make any predictions at this point would be arrogance so I am just going to hope for the best and stay vigilant.

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: SaturnFX

This mindset of just let everyone get infected asap so we can move on would cause insane amounts of deaths.

For people with serious pre-existing health conditions.

Yes, or more commonly knows as, westerners (obesity is a major health condition that covid exploits)

There is NO STOPPING this virus.

Not with that attitude

We don't have much funding for curing the common cold, and plenty of effective treatments (not to mention a billion dollar pharma industry that banks off of treating colds vs curing.)
This is not the cold, this is SARS...different animal

Can someone explain to me with the social distancing and the mask wearing to prevent "spikes", when just over 3 weeks ago in the uk we had mass demonstrations, no masks, very close contact, in the US demonstrations and riots, close contact, yes some masks but that was to hid their identities not for covid ??????
Now tell me why there has not been any, I would say out of this world, astronomical spikes of reoccurance. Bits here and there but NO massive spikes. Now justify that with "herd immunity".
I totally agree this virus is real but we aint being given the whole truth. And it stinks.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: SaturnFX

Try actually reading the thread before commenting, I've already discussed all the points you made.

Its actually been discussed not just by you, but by about 400 other threads since the start of this outbreak.
redundancy is king

a reply to: Grimpachi

I have been paying attention to Florida. Cases have increased as well as a slight uptick in deaths. Today has thrown that all out of wack. 120 deaths a new record.

People don't tend to die as soon as they are tested positive. It's too bad Florida does not report COVID hospitalization rates, but it seems that in many places the problem is pretty bad. Maybe it's like that every summer. But it can't be a good thing.
Florida

a reply to: Phage

That doesn't surprise me. The data scientist that was in charge of gathering it all for Florida to present the CDC Johns Hopkins and the news agencies was fired when she didn't comply with changing or deleting data to fit the state's narrative.

Florida Scientist Says She Was Fired For Not Manipulating COVID-19 Data