The political mentality of ATS and its demise

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I think it's the toxicity that comes with the political discourse that's the problem

This is another argument I mostly disagree with. We are having rigorous political debates on highly contentious issues and it seems some people simply aren't built for that, they view it as members attacking each other, when in reality the discussions we have here are often a lot more tame than political arguments you see occur in comment sections around the internet, because the mods will delete a post of they feel it's an unnecessary attack on another member and not an attempt to express a valid political opinion. Like I said there are only so many conspiracy topics in existence, plus I see nothing wrong with the fact people enjoy debating politics, it's clearly something that draws people in and I think it's very important to have these discussions. Furthermore, someone said the other day that politics and conspiracies go hand in hand, which is a very true statement, especially in current times. If anything politics has allowed members here to contribute far more content than they otherwise would have, it has kept us going in a way. If you dislike it there's no requirement to be in the mud put... in my experience the people who dislike it are those who always lose the debates.

This^

Some people just can't handle having their views challenged.

Left wingers: "ATS sucks because there's hardly any conspiracy threads anymore!"

Also left wingers, on every thread about Obama/Biden/Clinton scandals: "This is nothing but a baseless right-wing conspiracy theory!"

There's plenty of conspiracy theories here, some people just don't like who the theories are about. When they were all about Bush nobody was whining that it was "too political."

I wrote this on another thread about ATS......it fits here in this thread too.

This site has been on the decline for years now. Is it really that much of a surprise that its shutting down? When I first joined, it was such a great conspiracy place but its turned into nothing more than a political trolling and hate filled site with very little conspiracy. People are leaving in droves because of the toxic atmosphere here and the biased moderation which leaves very little room for any intelligent conversations or debate. It's not Google. The onus is completely on the owners and admins for letting ATS go so far from its original state. I keep coming back in hopes that its changed back to its original state of knowledge and understanding but that's never going to happen. I'm sure I'll get a few trolls commenting to this but all you're doing is proving my point. Deny ignorance was once the creed here.......now all there is, is ignorance.

Much of what passes as debate is not debate, not only at ATS.

In a debate you have to agree on what the facts are.

If you cannot agree on what facts are, then you cannot argue from evidence.

We can't agree any more what is real and what is not.

Most people argue from BELIEF, are BELIEF-BASED, and have no idea what it means to argue from fact.

Most people includes myself as well. You cannot argue belief. It's why it used to be considered rude to talk about politics, religion and sex.

This thread reminds me of the Michael Caine bit from one of the Austin Powers movies:

"Two things I can't stand are those who are intolerant of others cultures ... and the Dutch."

TL;DR: You can't damn "the other side" for anything. Take responsibility.

a reply to: daaskapital

A lot of definitions and lines of demarcation have changed as well Daas.

For instance, it is no longer acceptable to criticize cultural issues without being called a racist. Because the definition of racist and racism has been turned into a power struggle between groups rather than a character flaw attributable to the individual.

So now everyone "right-wing" (which is also a moving target that includes liberals) is a racist regardless of their actual positions. Normal people cannot and SHOULD NOT acquiesce to that.

Defend your ideas on the battlefield you chose to enter or walk away.

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: daaskapital
It's a simple fact that ATS has been infested with US-centered right wing politics since 2016.

"Infested"?
Curious choice of words.

Where's an exterminator when you need one?...Am I Right?

I'm not American, so i don't really give a # about your left-right politics, but what i said is the simple truth. Do you not agree that ATS has been inundated by US-centered right wing politics since 2016?

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: daaskapital

A lot of definitions and lines of demarcation have changed as well Daas.

For instance, it is no longer acceptable to criticize cultural issues without being called a racist. Because the definition of racist and racism has been turned into a power struggle between groups rather than a character flaw attributable to the individual.

So now everyone "right-wing" (which is also a moving target that includes liberals) is a racist regardless of their actual positions. Normal people cannot and SHOULD NOT acquiesce to that.

Defend your ideas on the battlefield you chose to enter or walk away.

Fair points.

originally posted by: daaskapital

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: daaskapital
It's a simple fact that ATS has been infested with US-centered right wing politics since 2016.

"Infested"?
Curious choice of words.

Where's an exterminator when you need one?...Am I Right?

Do you not agree that ATS has been inundated by US-centered right wing politics since 2016?

I'm a "right wing" US citizen...and I've been here since 2010.
Lots of us have been here before 2016.

Plenty of "left wing" US citizens were also here before 2016...but many of them chose to leave after Hillary lost.
Hence your perceived imbalance.

If you're looking to place blame...blame the Leftist babies that ran away from ATS after they didn't get what they wanted.

@Gryphon66

I agree with you on debates and facts and people not believing or agreeing on what's real or not. The issue with that as it relates to ATS is that conspiracies by definition aren't based on the facts, atleast not the "accepted facts". They are based on alternate theories and alternate beliefs that then are used to create the new and hopefully real facts. So while you are 100% righ when it comes to a huge issue in regular society, it doesn't hold quite the same weight when discussing conspiracy because if we all agreed on the "facts" there wouldn't be any conspiracies for us to discuss.

On a side note, I'm sick of people blaming right wingers for the issues here. I actually don't think either political side is at fault at all. As I have said, right now our country and freedoms are at stake, political talk and conspiracy is the most important thing we can talk about now and the ability to do has to be preserved. The original decline I saw started about 8 years or so ago when a huge thread regarding a certain supposedly dead celebrity possiblly being alive and someone else was banned from being discussed. From then on and more and more of late, it seems when the "good old days" type of conspiracies are brought up, there is a large group of newer folks that show up and immediately shut it down and dismiss it. That's the biggest issue I see here and it involves things like aliens, multiple dimensions, hidden planets, faked deaths, you know, all the stuff people used to come here for. I have thought for a while the site has been compromised and infiltrated by people who want to shut down all conspiracy talk. I even think that's a big reason this is happening. The ad revenue issue isn't a new thing, it's been a problem for years now.

Again. If you are left wing and you can't deal, go to one of the 95% of the other sites on the internet that will cater to you. If you are right wing and you can't deal, go hide in your corner. Noone is forcing you to stay and honestly, if you can't handle differing opinions, most don't want you here. There's enough of that everywhere else we go. But, if you want to be a part of a community of people trying to get to the truth regardless of the topic, hang around. Some of the members on this site and the work they do is amazing and it's desperately needed right now.

I've always told people I actually felt honored to be a part of this site. Something I have never said about any other online community I have ever been a part of. The good members on here were always way above me in their ability to research, decipher, and do everything else that topics on here require. I still feel just as honored. Just have to wade through a little more BS every once in a while.

originally posted by: mtnshredder
It’s difficult to have debate with many here who toe the line of their party to the point of defending anything and everything they say or do, regardless of how insane it is. That # I’m sick of here. The political trolls, shills and anti-trumpers that have infiltrated ATS have done more damage to ATS than anything else. A large majority of the toxic material on this site comes from these people. They don’t care about debate, only invoking reactions and discord.

Such as this post. This was in context to the discussion, not directed at the following poster.

Swallowed whole by the usual suspects too

Following post:

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
You would know, after all nobody knows how to swallow quite like you do.

WTF? This wasn’t even in the pit, which would still violate T&C I believe. This is the kind of troll crap and mentality that’s killing this site.

Yep, I made a similar comment a few months ago and was slapped on the hand for it. Others say things like that all the time and rarely get slapped. No mod can be perfect but several people here get away with saying things without reprisal.

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: daaskapital
It's a simple fact that ATS has been infested with US-centered right wing politics since 2016.

"Infested"?
Curious choice of words.

Where's an exterminator when you need one?...Am I Right?

That states clearly what the poster prefers, no?

originally posted by: 3sixand9
Trump's a leader, a cult leader. The MAGA movement is a political cult

Another curious choice of words. I have been a conservative for as long as I can remember. No one, even Trump, has the power to control my thoughts. His message just happens to go mostly along the path I choose to follow: smaller government, stronger military, lower taxes for everyone, less restrictive burdens on businesses, especially small businesses, etc.

One thing I am not, is a cult member. I've explained that here several times in the past as to why, there's no need to re-hash that. Your choice of the words "cult member" is one of the many inflammatory labels used by both sides and it's unnecessary. Trumpster, Trumptard, boot-licker, facist, nazi, all of those have been used excessively toward anyone that doesn't follow the left-wing mindset and there are just as many from the right. Those types of things are what killed good debate here.

originally posted by: HalWesten

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: daaskapital
It's a simple fact that ATS has been infested with US-centered right wing politics since 2016.

"Infested"?
Curious choice of words.

Where's an exterminator when you need one?...Am I Right?

That states clearly what the poster prefers, no?

'Infestations' are generally dealt with by extermination.

As noted..."infested" seemed a curious choice of words.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Much of what passes as debate is not debate, not only at ATS.

In a debate you have to agree on what the facts are.

If you cannot agree on what facts are, then you cannot argue from evidence.

We can't agree any more what is real and what is not.

Most people argue from BELIEF, are BELIEF-BASED, and have no idea what it means to argue from fact.

Most people includes myself as well. You cannot argue belief. It's why it used to be considered rude to talk about politics, religion and sex.

Gryphon, for all the arguing you and I have done I have to credit you for getting me to look into certain things a lot harder before I comment. We'll never agree in a lot of areas but I just wanted you to know that. I appreciate you calling me out on a particular topic when I need it.

The problem, as I see it, is that there really isnt a left and right spectrum anymore. At least, not in the sense most speak of it.

There is the corporate-political cult and then.. everyone else. A cult that exploits peoples ideals and trust in order to gain perpetual funding and control. Most is done by inculcating the idea that a given social group is fighting against the very thing they are perpetuating themselves.

We are seeing the birth pangs of a nightmare mash-up of corporatism and technocracy. The colloquial "right" is focused on commies and the colloquial "left" is focused on virtue signal overload. Both work towards the same end, in this context.

ATS has actually remained somewhat insulated from this, but its a mindvirus afterall. Its probably quite a shock for some to emerge from places on the internet that are under total corpolitical control and stumble into somewhere like ATS.

originally posted by: 3sixand9
Trump's a leader, a cult leader. The MAGA movement is a political cult

This is a cult:

Victims of sexual violence from NY Democrat told to stay silent for good of the party.

originally posted by: daaskapital
It's a simple fact that ATS has been infested with US-centered right wing politics since 2016. It's no coincidence that many people subsequently left and the site suffered.

There may be some truth to this. I don’t know but the managers might have better insight on that

And even if they did they likely wouldn’t admit it

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

The only point of contention I have is the reasoning of a site like ATS failing.

I'd wager that folks dont want discussion or debate. To use a favorite quote of a known authoritarian they want "to shut that # down!"

I mean it's easy to sling terms like racist or trumper or homophobe and halt the dialog. Ignorance in grand and unifying fashion.

It was explained by the owner why it was no longer sustainable. Combination of an economy imploding at the cheers of democrats and the extensive use of adblockers by window shoppers and members. Probably some intentional blocking by the tech companies in search results as well, but we all know the big tech companies don't do such a thing, right?

originally posted by: TheMadTitan
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

ATS will die because it is a shadow of it's former self. This site was my 'go to' for conspiracies, ufos and all other paranormal stuff. Most people who came here, came for the ufos and the conspiracies. Over time, political posts started to become more common until where we're at today.

This isn't a conspiracy site anymore, it's a political poo-fest and until THAT is addressed then the site will continue to decline. Even if the site was bought out with new owners, if they keep the political nonsense the way it is it will continue to fail.

New conspiracies have been drying up and gathered momentum since December 2012 and the old ones have been done to death.
Politics began filling the gap around the time of Hillary versus Barack debates.

Keep the faith , there may be a revival of the old spirit on the horizon.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

However is it not our job to appease advertisers, we aren't going to change how we think or sacrifice our free speech. I think it's very telling that some people here would rather blame the right-wing members than place any blame on corporations who choose to censor or suppress certain perspectives.

Very brave. You will now have to be very brave at another, differently flavored, still privately owned verbal mosh pit

Like this is your job

This liberal robustly reminds you that the kind of snake you prefer is what bit this site in the ass

Sometimes we get our wishes fulfilled and we are not delighted

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: LABTECH767

There's an old saying..."If you can't handle the heat...stay out of the kitchen".
I see the 'Mud Pit' in this way.

If a group of people intent on fighting for their beliefs and positions...ultimately feel overwhelmed by their opponents ...they can admit their defeat to others...admit to themselves the weakness inherent in their own arguments... and move elsewhere...maintaining some modicum of self-respect and respect from their opponents.

Conversely, blaming the victors for their losses...(instead of their own shortcomings)...only adds to the loser's humiliation.
THIS is what we now see taking place in the Mud Pit.

Again, if some people fear and complain that one political mindset has taken control of a forum...the onus is on them to continue to attempt to take it back (assuming they actually ever truly possessed the courage of their convictions).

If, instead, they choose to condemn the victors and desert the field...they are cowards.

This has always been the nature of the Mud Pit.

Once again I don't see it as cowardice, perhaps stupidity but not cowardice though I was never a mud pit fan to be fair, I do see the clever use of the liars argument though, a small lie turn's into a bigger lie and before the liar knows it they are in way over there head.

I have on occasion lost debates, I would not call them argument's in the angry sense of the word though that is what they actually are, upon losing I will admit defeat if someone has corrected me in a way that I find enlightening.

However you do on occasion come up against obstinate idiot's that simply will not back down, are they the kind you are talking about, even when they are wrong and know it.

Some people are simply so proud and stubborn that it takes them time to admit defeat, but you know your and my reality's are not the only ones in the room there is the REAL reality and there is our own individual personal reality and sometimes people can actually have very different personal reality's from one another but this does not make them liars or stupid even if they are against consensus rather it makes them level headed in there own reality and this then only becomes a serious problem when and if there personal reality is harmful to them or those around them,. There in comes the whole argument about relative sanity, I am not a psychologist and I guess a psychologist could put this into far better context then I can.

But having said that can you imagine just how boring it would be if EVERYONE agreed with you, indeed you can as that is why you love the mud pit but that said yes we may have a peaceful world, we may have a utopian society of sorts depending on what you believe BUT it would be stagnant because we need dynamism, we need difference of opinion and thought to both drive society and to change it like a kind of bottled chaos harnessed to the power of progress and change (sometimes for the good and sometimes not so) if you like.