Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

a reply to: spy66

I'm sure he was a very important person.

a reply to: thesearchfortruth

Hehe, another one bites the dust.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Yes, James was a very important person in Scotland and England.

a reply to: spy66

He be dead now.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Yes….He did some very important Things that still shape parts of our societies today. His work has shaped Peoples believes even until today.

a reply to: spy66

Even of some people who read the Bible.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Yes those People....

But, James did not create Thee Bible,... he and his printers just printeted a Version that People in the UK would better understand. But he did tweak the Words written in the Great Bible made by Henry of England. The Great Bible was taken from the German Version.

a reply to: Nothin

I apologize for the long delay some crazy people came over my house and I
had to bar b que some steaks before they would leave.

What do you figure happens to folks, whom 'go' 'beyond, below, above, deeper' than this limited 'supposed reality', naked in mind, and without beliefs ?

What do I figure? That's the right word to use "Figure".

I assume you're asking me where people who don't believe go after they die?
If I'm correct then I believe I have the correct answer to that question.
Thank you for asking.

God is merciful. If it weren't true the Bible wouldn't repeat it so many times.
I do not believe the souls of men are indestructible. I do believe Gods Angels
are indestructible. They never die. So Hell's Angels are indestructible.

So when it describes "The wicked" in Revelations. Being thrown in the lake
of fire and the smoke of their torment lasting forever and ever? If that verse was
referring to the souls of men? The line would have read "Sinners" instead of
"The Wicked" This makes sense because the Bible also tells us there is a second
death. If the souls of men are tormented forever and ever then who is it that is
put to the second death?

It has to be the souls of men. Believe it or not you won't hear this interpretation
from hardly anyone. But the good news I can tell you from what I figure.

Those who never find their way to redemption thru Jesus Christ are put out
of existence. The second death is quick in lake of fire for the souls of men.
Pretty much that's what atheists counts on any way from my experience.
No existence after life and I believe they do ultimately get there wish.
So God is still merciful and he is still just. It may however ad to the
sinners torment. When they see what their foolishness has cost them.
Because life is always better than death. The Atheist surely wants
death. I believe God is merciful.

I hope I understood your question !

a reply to: Pachomius

OK, parts of the old testament are borrowed from Babylonian, especially Noah and the flood. See Uptanishtim (spelling?)

Furthermore, let US make man in OUR image is plural, we are referring to a group of beings here, still not a single God.

If we are talking about the same God who Moses went up onto the mountain after escaping Egypt, still a physical being, wanted to kill any simple human who went past the perimeter because they might see his 'Glory' i.e. Spaceship. His glory who arrives in rather Sci-Fi fashion.

Or are we talking about the God who wanted to have a first born son sacrificed, only for an 'Angel' to intervene (anyone with half a brain already knows this far into the Bible we are now talking about physical beings who have numerous sects/sides).

Virgin Mary, sees an Angel, he tells her stuff, next minute she's pregnant.....we have hypnosis techniques that can block memories. Probably raped her, or just IVF'ed her. Imagine what techniques and sciences advanced species have?

I really could go on, especially with the Old Testament/Torah.

Quran, first sentence, I am the Lord of ALL THE WORLDS, plural...Multiple civilised planets/dimensions?

So, we cannot have an intellectual debate about monotheistic faiths, while they attempt to bring some good, they also talk about a lot of bad, teach a lot of bad, and are rooted in something otherworldly.

Something beyond these physical beings that are trying to control the human race? Sure. There probably is. Years of meditation and detachment from the physical would probably bring you closer. So much noise though in every day life, only the few achieve such states and knowledge.

But God as you want to debate, no, that God is still something physical, likely alien, likely self serving. Call him the Commander of the army, but that's about it. Things that demand worship or prostration are succubus, feeding on that release of self.

a reply to: Phage

Are you serious? You actually believe there has been no editorializing?

I believe in Jesus Christ. To hell with editorializing what I do believe.
God is capable of getting us the message he wants us to have. There isn't
anything I've seen that disqualifies scripture. Point to a single verse
that you think was editorialized. If you can't show where a single
scripture has evolved thru time. To change the message of it's context.
Then you're blow'n smoke up you're own wazoo if you do believe that.
But I doubt that even matters to you.

a reply to: pthena

I suppose occasional drunkenness is bad too.

What makes you even ask? You aren't having a conversation with
some holy roller partner. Hello? No Bible thump'n come'n from my
end. I'm a believer but I continue to struggle and don't expect it
to ever be any different in this life. So don't make the mistake of
think'n I'm gonna judge you. Because truth is from what you just
told me. I'm worse than you by far. But Christ came for people
like you and I from my understanding. So I at least refuse to f&^k
that off. If at all possible.

Drunk or not I'm left think you didn't do the slut. And fidelity
prolly isn't the only reason that's a good thing. So ya I apologize
for the delayed response.

a reply to: Nothin

This is a fast moving popular thread, need a few tabs open for this.

So I asked "What the hell is heaven ?"

then you asked "Transcendence beyond suffering ?"

and now you ask "When are you going back out into nature ?" in the context of "Beds are box-like, in box-like rooms, within box-like buildings,"

I just happen to have a story about all that, but first I will quote something I found in a wikipedia footnote.

In Parerga and Paralipomena, Volume 2, Chapter 10, § 141, Schopenhauer presented the difference between transcendent and immanent in the form of a dialogue. The dialogists were Thrasymachos, a student of German Idealism, and Philalethes, a Kantian Transcendental Idealist. "Thrasymachos: …I know these expressions from my professor, but only as predicates of a loving God with whom his philosophy was exclusively concerned, as is only right and proper. Namely, if God is situated within the world, he is immanent; if he resides somewhere outside, he is transcendent. … Philalethes: Transcendent knowledge is that which, going beyond all possibility of experience, strives to determine the nature of things as they are in themselves; immanent knowledge, on the other hand, is that which keeps within the bounds of the possibility of experience, but thus can speak only of phenomena."
Transcendence_(philosophy)#cite_note-4

A Man was close to death from cancer. His Wife asked me to talk to him. When I entered his box-like room I saw him in his box-like bed. He looked more frightened than pained, even though he had chosen to forgo a morphine drip.

I was at a loss as to what to say to him, but His Wife had told me that he had retired from the U.S. Park Service. So I got close to him and said, "Think of your favorite place in the woods."

He started crying and said, "I wanted to be in the Forest Service, but there weren't any openings at the time, so I went into the Park Service, is that Okay ?"

I then reassured him that although the Forest Service is indeed better than the Park Service, he had done the closest to the ideal that was available to him at the time. And that, the closest, still afforded him the opportunity to have a favorite place in the woods.

He then thanked me very much as did His Wife. I then went about my other work so I wasn't there when he died, but His Wife was. She told me that I had given him the greatest gift possible under those circumstances.

-----------------------------
So yes. Heaven is Transcendence beyond suffering.

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: Phage

What I said is no more a lie than the claim that God exists and is our creator. Both are opinions.

Oh I see so two wrongs make it right for you? Not to mention the work
of scholars over many centuries. All the hand written scriptures copied
over and over just for us to have them. But everyone should just put all
that out of their minds and think like you or be ridiculed by you non
stop.

You're acting like a child because your opinion differs? And you think
that's a good reason? At least you'll maintain credibility with your like
minded pat each other on the back crowd.

OP is right and I don't ever tell another member not to post in a thread.
But why post childish attempts at humor when you aren't even good at it?
Leave the thread alone if that's all you're here for. All I can tell you is you
should be here to see if you might possibly find out what you don't know.

You don't have a single reason for being present in this thread. So why are
you?

Because this is a public forum. Deal with it.

a reply to: pthena

You put those two posts together very well.
The coffee must be kicking this morning.
Sometimes we have Kicking-Horse-Pass coffee here, and take-out the "ing-Horse-P".
Sometimes coffee comes in boxes.

Perhaps also transcendence beyond boxes ?

a reply to: carsforkids

Point to a single verse
that you think was editorialized.

Have you ever had a copy of Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece ?

Here is what the web page has to say about the current edition:

The 28th edition of the Nestle-Aland had to accomplish two different tasks. First, the apparatus had to be revised thoroughly to give it more clarity and make it easier to use. Secondly, the text-critical in-sights and decisions resulting from work on the Editio Critica Maior of the Greek New Testament had to be incorporated. As a consequence of these alterations, which so far concern only the Catholic Letters, the Nestle-Aland has for the first time in its history a different presentation for different parts of the text. The Catholic Letters were revised according to a fundamentally new concept which in the long run will be adopted for the entire edition. The revision of the remaining texts was confined to a thorough inspection and rearrangement of the apparatus, while the basic structure was left untouched.
...
1. Revision and Correction of the Whole Edition

Newly discovered Papyri listed
Distinction between consistently cited witnesses of the first and second order abandoned
Apparatus notes systematically checked
Imprecise notes abandoned
Previously concatenated notes now cited separately
Inserted Latin texts reduced and translated
References thoroughly revised
...
Newly discovered Papyri listed
For the first time, the readings of the newly discovered Papyri 117-127 are listed in the apparatus, opening up interesting perspectives particularly for the Acts of the Apostles.
www.nestle-aland.com...

So when you get a chance open up a copy of Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece and take a look at the apparatus, usually at the bottom of each page. Lots of variations due to different manuscripts having many word and sentence structure differences.

a reply to: carsforkids

Although that wasn't the intention of my question : can now see how you have interpreted it that way.
Many of your points may be interesting for others to debate, but am more interested in trying again to re-ask the question :

It was in relation to this text :

originally posted by: carsforkids
... So if a reality is limited as ours surely and truthfully is then there must be a
greater reality. And reality does not exist beyond conscious observation.
Logical conclusion. The greater reality must be experienced by a greater
being than ourselves. It is only by thinking and reason that I've brought
myself past belief to knowledge. I can say with no doubt God exists because
my thinking and patience to find reason, finally opened the door if you will.
And thru the open door on my thoughts shined greatly the light of eternal mind...

Was asking what you thought of when the yogis and maharishis, ancient sages and philosophers, folks with 'weird' experiences, and all of the varied deep experiences of living humans : and how that compared to similar experiences of folks whom are strong believers, having similar experiences, including deep prayer, being 'touched-by-God', and such.

a reply to: carsforkids

Drunk or not I'm left think you didn't do the slut. And fidelity
prolly isn't the only reason that's a good thing. So ya I apologize
for the delayed response.

No need to apologize for the delay.
You should apologize to the lady though.

You have no idea whether she was volunteering to be my next wife or not. Would you call my second wife ( if I had one ) names too ?

a reply to: Nothin

Thanks for reminding me.
I just started my second pot a brewing.

I'll book mark the Kicking Horse Coffee web page. There's a store locator and everything.

I don't think I've ever had Rocky Mountain grown before.


ETA

Mountains do transcend valleys after all.

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: carsforkids

Although that wasn't the intention of my question : can now see how you have interpreted it that way.
Many of your points may be interesting for others to debate, but am more interested in trying again to re-ask the question :

It was in relation to this text :

originally posted by: carsforkids
... So if a reality is limited as ours surely and truthfully is then there must be a
greater reality. And reality does not exist beyond conscious observation.
Logical conclusion. The greater reality must be experienced by a greater
being than ourselves. It is only by thinking and reason that I've brought
myself past belief to knowledge. I can say with no doubt God exists because
my thinking and patience to find reason, finally opened the door if you will.
And thru the open door on my thoughts shined greatly the light of eternal mind...

Was asking what you thought of when the yogis and maharishis, ancient sages and philosophers, folks with 'weird' experiences, and all of the varied deep experiences of living humans : and how that compared to similar experiences of folks whom are strong believers, having similar experiences, including deep prayer, being 'touched-by-God', and such.

It really is a shame these gurus and shaman types are unable to engineer some manner of recording their experiences and bringing back any kind of traces like NASA did during the moon landing. Now that's compelling evidence.

a reply to: TzarChasm

It really is a shame these gurus and shaman types are unable to engineer some manner of recording their experiences and bringing back any kind of traces like NASA did during the moon landing.

I was telling some stories to an audience at work one time.
This one guy said, "I wish I could be a fly on the wall some time."

So then I'm all like, "What, you wouldn't see anything except a guy sitting in front of a type writer chain smoking and getting up for coffee occasionally. The best you would see is the long pauses as he stands in a doorway looking in one room and then the other. That's when the awesome happens."

No moon rocks. Sorry.