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Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

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posted on Aug, 11 2020 @ 07:11 PM
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I just put this very brief argument for the existence of God in the website:
www.closertotruth.com...# (sort by newest)


MariusDejess • 5 minutes ago

I exist therefore God exists.

First we define God as in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

Then we concur that man has a beginning.

Therefore man is the evidence for the existence of God: As man exists therefore God exists.

Objection: Should man become extinct, God will no longer exist?
Answer: Should man become extinct, then there would be no more atheists, so no need for any proof for God's existence addressed to atheists, for atheists would also be extinct - good riddance.


,



posted on Aug, 11 2020 @ 07:33 PM
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a reply to: pthena

I don't want to be that person but (I guess I am) it's proof of nothing more than that you can "break your mind" on purpose.
I always enjoy reading similiar accounts to what I had, be it kundalini or whatever.
The thing is, as you guys so correctly said earlier, however I decide to name it it's pretty sure never encompassing even half of what it is.

But in the area of this discussion I think the word God carries a sense of "following its very own agenda" and all those "epiphanies" or "moments of enlightenment" never serve a purpose.
I mean besides getting the experiencer hooked and often leading to a certain "dysfunctionality".

Hypothetically if those moments came from God we'd have to strip him of some omnipotence because it would seem he is reaching out but we can't establish a channel of communication free from "interference" (as in the saying: life got in the way)
We can't retrace the steps leading to the breakthrough or repeat them (as far as I'm aware of). Which makes him in a way as much trapped in his possibly matter-less existence as we are in our matter-bound existence.
And that's something to consider.

So even to those who think they have "proof of God through experience" the question of what God is remains if you're honest unanswered. And can be at will exchanged with aliens, ascended masters, higher self, ...it's just a matter of taste.


edit on 11-8-2020 by Peeple because: add



posted on Aug, 11 2020 @ 09:39 PM
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a reply to: Peeple

Alright, you caught me.
Now I'm embarrassed.



even to those who think they have "proof of God through experience" the question of what God is remains if you're honest unanswered.

Yes, but defining attributes away should be worth something, stripping away the omnipotence notions.

Now I'm kind of speechless. That vow of silence is starting to look tempting. I better sleep on it.



posted on Aug, 11 2020 @ 09:54 PM
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Dear readers and fellow posters:


You have seen the acceptance of my No. 1 step in the resolving of the issue God exists or not, namely:

"1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that? (Answer = yes)

There is certainty of our existence, from the fact that with our consciousness we know that we each one do exist, and we know also from our mutual or communal consciousness of one another, for example in this my thread here, we are also certain of the existence of fellow human beings like ourselves.


Now I am asking everyone to examine on honest intelligent productive thinking my No. 2 step for resolving (together with No. 1 step) the existence of God, God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning - here as follows is my No. 2 step:

"2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?"


Of course you will tell me that there is no doubt at all about the fact that we came from our parents - I see it also, and that is obvious.


My purpose is however to introduce you to the idea of cause and effect or called causation or causality, namely, that in the realm existence there are things or entities which bring about the existence of other things or entities, the formers are named causes and the latters are called effects.


Do you get my drift? That is the gist of my No. 2 step for the resolution of the issue God exists or not, God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


So, let me repeat my No. 2 step:

"2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?"


What do you guys say about cause and effect or called causation or causality?



Annex

posted on Aug, 9 2020 @ 07:13 AM
.

Dear everyone, here is my exposition proving from evidence the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

.

1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?

2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?

3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?

4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?

5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?

6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?

7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?

10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?

11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?

12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?

.


Dear everyone, please point out what Number 1 to 12 you have difficulties with, okay?

.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 03:43 AM
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a reply to: Pachomius

I don’t accept you god exists.

What now.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 04:54 AM
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a reply to: pthena

I'm sorry. Why would you feel that way? That wasn't my intention.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 05:29 AM
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a reply to: Peeple

So I've slept on it a bit:

Self Help Run Amok

The title is also the summary.

Some people get really messed up (dysfunctional). Frequently the problem stems from a realization that those around them see the World much differently than they do themselves. They are a minority of one.

When they hit upon a different way of seeing things, or at least speaking differently, which allows them to re-integrate in some manner with at least a sub-group of society they consider themselves "healed". Once "healed" they tend to consider themselves to be experts qualified to teach others.

Now that is crazy. Not recommended.
---------------------------
This Lady called me on the phone one night and said the Her Friend, who was really really smart, was in town and I really should meet her. So I should go down to this bar. This Lady was in the habit of trying to fix me up with her friends.

Turns out that Her Friend had had some sort of problem but found the cure. So she had this whole curriculum of self help with charts and pictures and flawless formatting so that other women could benefit by her self-help cure.

As Her Friend was describing all this to me, This Lady, with a proud smile on her face, was saying, "Isn't she great!"

I was starting to feel horrified actually. Her Friend didn't have a Masters degree in anything related to the field. And yet, through connections, her curriculum had been adopted by a State Prison system to be used in Women's Prisons. To a captive audience. Her friend struck me as quite unstable regardless of her self-help "cure".

------------------------
So yeah, teaching people to shatter their minds so that they may benefit from some re-integration technique is really quite mad.

And ultimately, the question of what God is is left unanswered.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 05:33 AM
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a reply to: Peeple



I'm sorry. Why would you feel that way? That wasn't my intention.

Read the above post.

Just because I have found a way to be grounded (somewhat) in the real World, doesn't make me an expert on grounding other people. All this much talking may give people the wrong impression.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: Pachomius

So your whole definition of god is "the thing that caused the universe and everything inside it to happen" and that's it? Is that really all you needed for a definitive summary of god? Lazy.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 12:15 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

Do better



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 12:31 PM
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a reply to: Out6of9Balance

It's been done quite a few times.
Ontological argument.

Even if/when someone accepts the argument/conclusion, that just leaves you with a Deist(imo) type definition of God.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 01:14 PM
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originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: TzarChasm

Do better


I posted mine quite a few pages back.



In a few simple words, god is a hypothesis. Allegedly the creator of this planet, and the surrounding celestial environment, and life as we know it. Unable to be tested and measured in any practical sense. Its existence depends on the presumption of certain properties which both necessitate its being and justify the absolute lack of concrete traces indicating its presence including those presumed properties. It is either not real or desperately avoiding detection at all costs.


And everything else that has been said here is all just desperate attempts to get around the facts described above.
edit on 12-8-2020 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 01:38 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

What is God beyond the hypothesis? Beyond the interpretation of humans? Don 't think He's impossible to exist there. Gods existence is not dependent on human reasoning or the ability of humans to define.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: Pachomius
6. Beginning in as far as we human measures time and space and in it's current state. No reason to think the Universe has not always existed.
7. No evidence to support that..existence can only be measured by the observer. So if we didn't exist...not existing is not evidence of saying nothing else existed prior.
8.No...who created or caused the entity.
9. Anything existing is the thing that exist. Anything beyond existence does not exist. It is that simple
10. the only evidence of anything existing is the things that exist..i.e. The universe and it's content
11. you can make up and call anything by name...the tooth fairy , Santa clause, the Easter bunny. That does not prove they actually exists or they created a universe.
12. Are you disillusion into think something exists without proof of it's existence.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: toktaylor

There is no such thing as no proof of God to a human.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: Out6of9Balance
90 pages and still no proof...go ahead and enlighten us. Us mere humans...



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 03:15 PM
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MONO



NOMO = that means the thread is about proving on evidence the existence of God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, and God is that one of peoples who are adherents of any one of the three monotheistic faiths of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

Please be guided accordingly, everyone who cares to prove or disprove the existence of God.


So today I have decided to just explain in brief words what my 12 steps to the proof on evidence for God's existence is all about, by giving comments on each step.

And I invite posters who care to interact with me, to simply choose only one step per post to talk with me on that one step, but also of course get himself connected to the MONO statement above.

Otherwise I will very seriously suspect you are into off-topic posting in this my thread.

You will see the 12 steps in Annex below, now I will start with comments on each step.

________________________




"1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?"

Comments
When you dear posters care to interact with me on No. 1, you should have a concept of what is existence, and here is my concept of existence, existence in concept is as follows:
"Existence is the default status of reality."


"2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?"

Comments
To interact with me on No. 2, you must have a concept of cause and effect or causation or causality, and here is my concept of cause and effect, namely: in the realm of existence there is the recurring event of an entity or a group of entities like for example, a man and wife i.e. parents, who bring about the existence of other entities, for example children, so that the formers are called cause and the latters are called effect.


"3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?"

Comments
To interact with me on No. 3, you must have a concept of the fallacy of infinite regress of cause and effect, and here is my concept of the fallacy of infinite regress of cause and effect, namely: the backward asking of the same question, for example, when a person is told that Bot-1 caused the existence of Bot-2, he then asks the same question, what Bot caused Bot-2, and when he is told Bo-3, he then again asks the same question, what Bot caused Bot-3, when told B-4, he then asks the same question, what Bot caused Bot-4, and on and on and on and on... backward.


"4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?"

Comments
This step is intended by me to keep posters focused on the fact that we are here in my thread concerned with humans, and not some imaginary entities talking about the existence of God.


"5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?"

Comments
To interact with me on No. 5, the poster must know what is the concept of beginning, and here is my concept of beginning, it is a point in the event of causation at which point the effect starts existing, antecedent to that point, the effect was not existing.


"6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?"

Comments
This No. 6 is intended by me to realize whether the poster is informed about the beginning of the universe from science; if he is not informed, then I will tell him to get informed, or go away.


"7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?"

Comments
This point is intended by me to educate posters if need be: that the 'concept' of nothing-ness cannot be the cause of something at all, unless the posters are irrational entities.


"8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?"

Comments
This step is intended by me to test posters whether they can and do use their brain to engage in honest intelligent productive thinking.


"9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?"

Comments
This step is intended by me to teach posters on what is the correct concept of evidence.


"10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?"

Comments
This step is intended by me to educate posters on how to do honest intelligent productive thinking.


"11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?"

Comments
This step is intended by me to teach posters how to do honest intelligent productive thinking.


"12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?"

Comments
This step is intended by me to dismiss posters who are irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God.






Annex

posted on Aug, 9 2020 @ 07:13 AM
.

Dear everyone, here is my exposition proving from evidence the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

.

1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?

2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?

3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?

4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?

5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?

6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?

7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?

10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?

11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?

12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?

.


Dear everyone, please point out what Number 1 to 12 you have difficulties with, okay?

.


.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: toktaylor

How about you just look where you live?



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: Out6of9Balance
Earth...where there are over 2500 Gods being worshiped.



posted on Aug, 12 2020 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: Pachomius
The point is, any unbiased person who looks at the evidence rationally can easily see that God is imaginary. Critical thinking and the scientific method are our best methods for determining reality. God(s) is a myth and exists only in the minds of believers.
So how do we prove that God, or any other god humans have imagined over the millennia, is imaginary? We list the attributes and positive claims made for God, and then we use logic, science and critical thinking to prove that they are all false.
But if it is faith that we being presented with to prove the existence, then the same faith can be used to prove the existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.



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