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Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

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posted on Dec, 26 2020 @ 07:37 PM
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originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Pachomius

What if they both are right?



Yes, that is a good question, but we have to accept that we cannot be seeing and hearing and smelling and touching and tasting all around us, and with the maximum of attention and concentrated direction.

That is what magicians do, as also successful gamblers, they divert the attention of their audience and/or opponents, with distractions, without the latters realizing that they have been led to attend to something else, than what is really the focus that should be of their attention.

Wherefore two persons can be both right, but differently right in respect to their direction and strength of each one's attention.

Just the same in the greatest majority of instances, our attention the customary kinds and features of, they are adequate and productive for drawing what is dependable information i.e. knowledge, and what is belief which is founded on wishful hope and/or fear.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 10:51 AM
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Dear Never Despise, you show some learning in regard to "ontological contradictions associated with the connection between "inner" (self) and "outer" (the non-self) spheres."

I really and honestly love to exchange thoughts with you on what is existence, here is my concept on what is existence:

"Existence is anything at all we experience, like for examples, the nose on our face, the moon and the sun in the sky, and babies and roses in the neighborhood."

Do you have a concept of what is existence?



origindally posted by: Never Despise
a reply to: Pachomius

Why are some people always bringing up the idea that everything is an illusion, what is the advantage of such an attitude?


It resolves some ontological contradictions associated with the connection between "inner" (self) and "outer" (the non-self) spheres.

In the Yogacara school of analytic Buddhism it serves to heal a kind of schizophrenia caused by the false dualism of "inner" and "outer." The Madhyamaka school also uses this to crack open some ontological problems that are more or less unresolvable otherwise.

It need not be a pessimistic philosophy, or a solipsistic one. However, it can lead to pessimism, defeatism, and nihilism if crudely and superficially applied.



posted on Dec, 27 2020 @ 05:17 PM
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"My suggestion to you is that because we are talking about what connects all these that it to is a proposition that is transcendental and necessary, because of this when your view of reality is wrong the thing you place your faith in to connect these things will crumble." -ServantOfTheLamb

Thanks for your edifying advisory.

At present I seem to have discovered that examining existence leads me to come to the certainty of God existing, in concept as the permanent self-existent creator cause of man and the universe and everything transient and with a beginning.

You see, man cannot deny that there is existence.
And man knows that in existence there are things transient wherefore dependent on another thing to exist, and at least one thing or entity that is permanent and self-existing.
This one entity that is permanent and self-existing, it is God, in concept as the permanent self-existent creator cause of man and the universe and everything transient and with a beginning.
That is a concept of God, now we go forth into the universe to seek for this entity that corresponds to our or my concept of God.

What do dear fellow posters here say, Am I into circular reasoning?
.



originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Pachomius
I would implore you not to think of what follows as an argument, but rather a tool for exploration that I think will take the honest seeker to the feet of Jesus Christ.

The proposition the Christian God exist is what I would call transcendentally necessary. A proposition is transcendentally necessary if and only if it is an essential state of affairs for the understanding of both it's affirmation and it's denial.

Let's start with propositions that aren't about God to see what transcendental necessity is:

Language has meaning.

If language does not have meaning, then the proposition language does not have meaning is meaningless. So to assert that it doesn't have meaning in a meaningful way, would require it to be true that language has meaning. To assert that language does have meaning in a meaningful way also requires that language have meaning. So proposition 1 is transcendentally necessary.

2) There is truth.

In order for the statement, there is no truth to be a reality it would have to be the case that there is no truth. This means it would be true that there is no truth, which is a contradiction. Thus to make sense of the claim there is no truth one must assume that there is truth in reality and that proposition 2 is an example of it. It is also the case that asserting that there is truth assumes that truth is a property of reality. Therefore proposition 2 is transcendentally necessary.

3) Human cognition is basically reliable.

To make sense of the statement our cognition is not basically reliable we must assume that it is a reality that our cognition is a reliable, and the same is true for it's affirmation. This means we have again found that proposition 3 has transcendental necessity.

So above I've shown you three propositions that are similar in that they all must be true of reality for their truth is necessary for understanding both their affirmation and their denial.

The next thing I would draw your attention to is that all three of these propositions rely upon the truth of the other two. If language doesn't have meaning, then neither proposition 2 or 3 are meaningful assertions. If there is no truth, then neither proposition 1 or 3 can be true. If human cognition isn't basically reliable, then it cannot be justified as a reliable tool for accessing the truth of either proposition 1 or proposition 2. These are not the only propositions that have transcendental necessity. There are many, and none of them stand on their own devoid an existential context where there others are also realities. This points to the existence of something that connects and relates all these propositions which are necessary but not sufficient for grounding our epistemology. So what grounds the existence of these things as realities? The Materialist says it's spacetime, matter and energy. The Hindu says it is Brahman. The Taoist, the Tao. The Muslim, Allah. The Neoplatonist grounds it in an impersonal unity. The Christian, in the triune 8God of scripture. What do you say it is?

My suggestion to you is that because we are talking about what connects all these that it to is a proposition that is transcendental and necessary, because of this when your view of reality is wrong the thing you place your faith in to connect these things will crumble.




posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 02:50 AM
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a reply to: Pachomius

Thanks for your interest. In a way, the concept of "existence" can be defined so many ways that it's very hard to give a single definition IMHO.

You wrote:
"Existence is anything at all we experience, like for examples, the nose on our face, the moon and the sun in the sky, and babies and roses in the neighborhood."
I see no reason to deny this definition.

I would never say things "don't exist." However, I believe that nothing has independent self-origination.

For example, on the conventional level, a leaf and a tree are not the same thing. But the leaf depends on the tree for its existence, and the tree cannot exist without leaves either. Both depend also on sunlight, nutrients in the soil, fresh carbon dioxide to breathe and so on. If you follow the chain all the way, each "thing" is a kind of open-ended phenomenon dependent on other open-ended phenomena, in a web of interdependence.

This includes stuff like the "self," which can seem closed off and seperate from the rest of the universe. But in reality it is open-ended and connected to the vast web of reality in a variety of ways (through sensory input, through output in the form of will, through dependence on the body, which in turn depends on external food and water, and so on).



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 02:56 AM
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a reply to: Pachomius

No idea if He exists or not, but who were his parents? Who begot them and so on. Chicken/Egg.



edit on 28-12-2020 by violet because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 02:59 AM
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originally posted by: violet
a reply to: Pachomius

No idea if He exists or not, but who were his parents? Who begot them and so on. Chicken/Egg.




Asking what came before God is like asking "what is 1 mile south of the South Pole?" Things just don't work that way.

If you use the "God explanation" that is. There are other ways to map reality...



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 04:35 AM
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a reply to: Pachomius
The 'things' are like the waves in the ocean.
The ocean is waving.

So in this analogy.....the ocean is God and noses are waves......and so is man.

Man is a manifestation of God......or man is a wave in the ocean.

The trouble is you have identified yourself as just a wave.

Really though...... there is just the one ocean waving



edit on 28-12-2020 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:14 AM
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This whole existence is you. Part 1

All waves will have to go back in the ocean. Part 2.

edit on 28-12-2020 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

You ever reply to this...

I am sure the words of “it’s not real” is a real comfort to a abused and sexually exploited child. I think you should try to start the “Don’t worry, it’s not real counseling center.” I am sure it will provide real healing.

edit on 28-12-2020 by neutronflux because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:42 AM
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a reply to: neutronflux
Am I speaking to an abused or sexually exploited child?



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:46 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

"You are what the whole universe is doing at the time and place you happen to be at"
-Somebody, forget who



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:53 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: neutronflux
Am I speaking to an abused or sexually exploited child?



So this is a joke to you?


How about combat veterans that suffered the real and permanent loss of an arm or leg. And the very real effects to use resources to give them the use of replacement artificial legs or arms.

Is the pain of losing a leg, the field emergency care, the hospitalization, the loss, the psychological impact, the rehabilitation, the effort of replacing the leg “imagined”

I think you also ignored a question about the decades of real suffering caused by dropping atom bombs on Japan. An event that resulted in continuing effects after the bomb exploded.

Or the same for Chernobyl, and the resulting isotopes / elements from radioactive reactions and decay. A process still in motion.


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posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:54 AM
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a reply to: Never Despise


You are something the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is something that the whole ocean is doing.
Alan Watts – The Real You | Genius
genius.com...



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:57 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Never Despise


You are something the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is something that the whole ocean is doing.
Alan Watts – The Real You | Genius
genius.com...



So your only action is to crap on reality. And ignore real questions how your full of BS.


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posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 05:58 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Never Despise


You are something the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is something that the whole ocean is doing.
Alan Watts – The Real You | Genius
genius.com...




Now...

Or the same for Chernobyl, and the resulting isotopes / elements from radioactive reactions and decay. A process still in motion.

An event that echos and continues to impact the future.
edit on 28-12-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 06:00 AM
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a reply to: neutronflux
Be full of things that are not happening and there is suffering.
Be full of what is and here is peace.



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 06:01 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain
That's the one. Thanks muchly.



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 06:09 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: neutronflux
Be full of things that are not happening and there is suffering.
Be full of what is and here is peace.


So your imagined BS cannot answer how an event in the past causes future suffering and changes that echo into the future.

So it’s BS.



posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 06:14 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

In fact. You have to actually ignore the question. And use false authority to change the subject.

So intellectually sad and dishonest.

While your BS offers no real healing for those continually impacted by a past event that echos into the future. Events that impact whole regions and populations.
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posted on Dec, 28 2020 @ 06:25 AM
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Saying that one or more modes of reality have an illusory nature is not the same as saying people don't experience suffering (or other feelings) in reality.

A Buddhist philosopher once used the analogy of a realistic nightmare in which you dreamed you were a rhinoceros and your baby rhinoceros died. In the dream you would go through all sorts of suffering over this fact, but upon awakening you would discover you are not and have never been a bereved rhinoceros parent. The scenario was illusory but the pain you felt at the time was real.

Yogacara Buddhism posits a world constructed of illusions that cause pain which is in fact real pain.

It is worth noting this complex philosophy was hammered out in medieval Asia, where the suffering at all levels was immense and constant. Exploring the idea of mental constructs underlying reality is not a snide way of escaping pain. It can serve as a sophisticated way of trying to understand it.

edit on 28-12-2020 by Never Despise because: (no reason given)



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