Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
Reasoning...by itself cannot get you to morality.....

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Of course it can.

And doesnt the western god say we are all sinners (?) and therefore God doesnt solve that problem anyway?

MONO



Dear Neutron, where have you been, I missed you.

And Ringsofsaturn777, have we met before?

You see, everyone, one of my goals with web forums is to test my thoughts, when I get people to concur with me I am happy that I seem to be correct, at least with folks who concur with me.

Now with folks who don't concur with me, of course I care very much to engage in exchange with them on a sustained time, so that we will get to concur on the final conclusion we will have arrived at - to full concurrence.

So, please Neutron and Ringsofsaturn777 and everyone sojourning in web forums, please look over my words below, and just pick one thought and let you and me work on it, to test our thoughts, okay?

originally posted by: Pachomius


My latest repetition of the proof for the existence of God (below in quote) applies to the God of reason, and not to the God of religion.

What is the difference between the God of reason and the God of religion?

If anyone knows about the Bible, then I will tell you what is the difference between the God of reason and the God of religion.

First, there is in the Bible a lot about the God of reason, but as a whole the Bible is also about the God of religion, in particular, in the three monotheistic faiths of Christianism, Islamism, and Judaism.

Okay, here is the difference between the God of reason and the God of religion, from what I gather from the Bible itself:

The God of reason is described in the very first line of the Bible, namely:
"In the beginning God made heaven and earth."

And the God of religion in the Bible consists in the addition of hell to the first line of the Bible, thus:
"In the beginning God made heaven and earth and hell."

Take notice that hell figures a lot in the Bible, so also heaven and earth.


That is why my concept of God, namely, the God of reason is as follows:
"God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning."

originally posted by: Pachomius

Here is again my argument for the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

The more I repeat it, the more it gets so clear that I cannot imagine how atheists can rationally question it, but then talking about militant atheists, they are not rational at all, it is all stubborn adherence to irrationality with them.


Here is again now very brief and in again simple words my argument for the existence of God:


• 1. There is existence.
  
  
• 2. There are all kinds of things in existence that have a beginning.
  
  
• 3. Existence of things with a beginning logically demands the existence of at least one entity of existence that has no beginning.
  
  
• 4. Wherefore, that one entity in existence without beginning is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

originally posted by: Pachomius

1. There is existence.

2. There are all kinds of things in existence that have a beginning.

3. Existence of things with a beginning logically demands the existence of at least one entity of existence that has no beginning.

4. Wherefore, that one entity in existence without beginning is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

1. Yes there is existence.

2. Yes there are all kinds of things with a beginning.

3/4. Cant it be the universe itself that has no beggining? We have no reason to think that any of the matter and energy in existence ever didnt exist.. the FORMS which arise from all of this matter and energy interacting have discerable begginings but the matter itself which makes them up does not.

We have never observed "new matter/energy" arise from nothing and there is no reason to suppose that it ever has. Physics TELLS US matter cannot be created or destroyed.. which means necessarily that it has always existed. Why would you bother speculating about a "creator" of something that we know can't be created?

There you go world.. you can stop arguing.. nothing created the universe it has always been.

originally posted by: ras321
If you spew off a few hundred random words, those words will never ever coalesce into a tangible work of literature or any type of coherency. Never.

Actually, given enough time, throwing random words together will inevitably reproduce every great work of literature ever produced and mllions more besides.

originally posted by: Ringsofsaturn777

Actually, given enough time, throwing random words together will inevitably reproduce every great work of literature ever produced and mllions more besides.

Given that the odds of a beneficial random mutation are about 1/100 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (an actual estimate given by a peer reviewed research article) then it would take quadrillions of years to even get started on making a few alterations to start making one single new protein from scratch through random mutations. In other words, evolution is incompatible with observable phenomenon. This fantasy has to stop, it is deluding so many young minds throughout the world.

MONO




Amen amen, I say to you, it's not whom you know that counts, it's what you know.


Back to my now present concern, and it is that all existence and God are co-terminous, except that God is the master and master-mind, and existence is the Man Friday of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


Horror of horrors, hey!? That's what, pantheism!!!

So what, what's wrong with such a God?

Take notice, it's not whom you know that counts, but what you know, in particular from your very own personal self thinking on honest intelligent productive employment of your brain tissues.

MONO



Here is something about myself, which I placed in someone's blog whatever. Enjoy?!?!?!

Am I a narcisist here, or in the internet?

I just seem to be very keen to expound on my thoughts on God and that He exists, even though some posters think that I am insulting them, but I don't stop my contacts with them, it is they that go away from me because they see me to be insulting them.

Perhaps that is the narcisist in me, for I would have a good laugh by myself.

Or I am a mean person?

I have just been to the website of this person, and I think he is a narcisist, I made this comment, namely:

Definitely God exists in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.
That is the most honest intelligent productive thought with any human being.

I ask everyone, can there be a complete picture of reality of existence without God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning?

I ask the author/owner of this site, please host a forum.

What personal reasons do you have to not host a forum?

Have I contributed any comments in this site before?

selfawarepatterns.com... c43#comment-111764

And yes, my comment is awaiting approval by him - hahahahahaha!

It is bizarre that anything exists at all. Remember the laws of thermodynamics? Well if there was a beginning it means everything came from nothing. That would be referred to as not only the least likely scenario but an impossible one. It would have been so much easier for nothing to exist.

What would it mean if God exists?

Remember the truth offends the disbeliever.

originally posted by: centrifugal
It is bizarre that anything exists at all. Remember the laws of thermodynamics? Well if there was a beginning it means everything came from nothing. That would be referred to as not only the least likely scenario but an impossible one. It would have been so much easier for nothing to exist.

Nothing exists but appears to exist.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

The appearance appears to itself.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

And again. The suffering of a slave is not real?

What a stupid philosophy.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Itisnowagain

And again. The suffering of a slave is not real?

What a stupid philosophy.

Did you listen to the talks?
I think not......because your reply doesn't appear to address the post you replied to.

It is not philosophy btw.

originally posted by: Pachomius
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

[Please everyone, bear with me, I still have to re-learn how to write in ATS forum, as I used to know some over two years ago.]

By concept are you asking us what god is per say?

That's a good question - and for the conversation to move forwards rationally, we've gotta define what we mean by 'god'.

I'll propose a definition:

God is the creator of our reality - they are extremely powerful (in terms of what we believe to be powerful), and most importantly, conscious - and by that I mean, God has a mind.

Would anyone like to add to that definition?

originally posted by: Ringsofsaturn777

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
Reasoning...by itself cannot get you to morality.....

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Of course it can.

And doesnt the western god say we are all sinners (?) and therefore God doesnt solve that problem anyway?

I think what he means is objective morality, not subjective. Reason based morality can be boiled down to a core statement which is a desire based on our biological reactions - that statement is 'the desire is to minimise suffering'. This is the REASON for every moral decision we make, but even this reason itself is a subjective one. There is no absolute moral truth to the notion that minimising suffering is good (that which is fit for purpose). Therefore absolute morality cannot be reasoned into existence -

please bear in mind however that I'm not assuming that absolute morality actually exists, it could potentially be considered a nonsensical notion, as we cannot prove it's existence without consciousness, but once consciousness exists, all morality is subjective.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Itisnowagain

And again. The suffering of a slave is not real?

What a stupid philosophy.

Did you listen to the talks?
I think not......because your reply doesn't appear to address the post you replied to.

It is not philosophy btw.

You don’t answer the question.

The suffering of a slave is not real?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I am sure the words of “it’s not real” is a real comfort to a abused and sexually exploited child. I think you should try to start the “Don’t worry, it’s not real counseling center.” I am sure it will provide real healing.

originally posted by: SecretKnowledge
If there is a god, he's got a wicked sense of humour.

Child rape? Multiple sclerosis? Cancer? ATS closing down?

Dont get me started on priests..

Well we did do what we were told not to do. Then God gave the world over to Satan. If that is the real story, free will ironically does have a price. With only good in the world then regret, anger, humiliation, and sadness to name just a few would not exist. I guess if none of that existed before, its when our eyes were opened and we got knowledge, then we got all the baggage that came with it. Of course that is the whole Apple story and the temptress that women are, its all their fault! (Just kidding on that one)

Honestly, I come from more of the Karma side of things. We are here to learn and we not only come here but we are incarnated on other worlds. For me, being here for such a short time and then being just non-existent seems like huge waste but I am open to the possibility of being wrong.

I am not sure we are the pinnacle of Creation but we have to be up there on the creativity scale. Dinosaurs were here for millions of years, then someone got board. I am hoping we get off this planet and expand before someone gets board with us. I hope we keep our creator entertained enough that he lets us keep going.

I do think we are technology, just on a different scale. We are water and electricity (nerve impulses) and to me our Soul is the software that drives the hardware. Could we create an us from whole cloth? Out of nothing? Not right now, no but maybe in the future? I suppose..

Did we evolve from a slug? I have to accept that possibility but I am 90% on the other side of that theory. We have a pretty sophisticated eco system from the smallest microbes to those at the top of the food chain and everything in between. Earth just seems too perfect a place. It supports a multitude of different life forms and we are told that everything just evolved? I suppose..

We may have evolved, we may be created by a super natural being, heck we could have even been created by aliens. By no means am I an authority on the subject. I don't get all fire and bromstoney about my opinion. Or get snarky and pompous and think people are beneath me for thinking one way or another on the subject.

I think this is a great subject to explore but I find a lot of these conversations "evolve" into regret, anger, humiliation, and sadness.. Having said that, I'm a Karma guy. Now commence with the virtual whooping!

MONO*


I really am glad that there are some posters who seem to have stumbled into my thread on the topic:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

I thought I had exhausted my ideas but now I like to introduce this thought to everyone for their reactions, namely, the distinction between the object world that is outside and independent of our brain/mind, and the concept world that is inside man's brain/mind.

The concept of God is of the concept world, and to resolve the issue God exists or not, we must first work to agree on the concept of God, then we will go to the object world, and look up an entity that corresponds to our communally agreed on to be the concept of God.


*That MONO means I hold to the idea of the God of reason as distinct from the God of religion.

a reply to: Pachomius
Freemasonry often includes concepts of God as an external entity, however, esoteric masonic teachings clearly identify God as the individual himself: the perceiver. We are all God and as such we create our own reality. Although others believe God to be abstract.
Conceptions of God - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org...#:~:text=Freemasonry%20often%20includes%20concepts%20of,believe%20God%20to%20be%20abstract.

Personally, I agree that the perceiver is God......but the perceiver cannot choose.....it just witnessing

Choiceless awareness.