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Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

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posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 02:43 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: spy66

It seems the whore to me is a false church or religion. That is not of Christ. Probably believes in something like universal salvation.


It probably is because they beleive in Lord God and that Eden is heaven. Where the Dargon and the Serphent romes...

Our believes are so messed up...

people of faith talk like the needle to get into heaven is so large, but in reality it is very very small...

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 02:46 PM
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a reply to: spy66

So no free will? Then someone is pulling your strings to post?



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: spy66

You


It probably is because they beleive in Lord God and that Eden is heaven. Where the Dargon and the Serphent romes...


If there is no free will. They cannot believe, they are programmed. Please change your posting to be consistent with your arguments. Your own choice of words prove you wrong?
edit on 24-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixex



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 02:48 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: spy66

So no free will? Then someone is pulling your strings to post?


There is a reason why i am here. There is a reason why you are here. You have never ever questioned that...

Do you honestly think you have free will...? Than what are you doing with yours...??
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: spy66

The Bible doesn’t even support your view. How can God judge individuals if they don’t have free well and are programmed. There would be nothing to judge.

And if people are “programmed” they manage to deviate from their “programming” to be judged how far they are from the “program”.

What am I doing with my free will? What ever the heck I like. And at one time I completely did no believe the in God.
edit on 24-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed

edit on 24-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux




The Bible doesn’t even support your view. How can God judge individuals if they don’t have free well and are programmed. There would be nothing to judge.


Are you being the judge now..?

I have told you that the Bible is not just the word of God or the actions of God. But it is all a part of Gods plan. God created the singularity. The properties of everything that will manifest it self through time. It is what scripture is all about. It is just that we with our minds mess eveything up... We create our own theories and ideas about a fictional future.... Damn just look back at what our history is providing when it comes to this.... Damn we are being projected one vision after another... But reality dont show up as predicted.....

Who do we blame for this.... Do we blame God when we should blame our selves..?







edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 03:53 PM
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MONO



Dear readers and posters here, at this point in time I will transcend from exchange of thoughts on what is faith, and also skip exchange with posters who cite revelation authority like from the Bible.

I was into my discourse on what it is to prove that some things exist permanently or eternally, and I have reached the (ii) step - see quote below.

Now I will resume and continue my discourse, on (ii), how to prove that things beyond our access by our external senses of sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciously, namely - that mankind can prove to exist and that ultimately existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

Here are my steps to expound on how mankind can and does prove the existence of things beyond our access by sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciousness, AND that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

    1. 1 Mankind has a mind that is endowed with intelligence.
    2. 2 Intelligence tells us that there is a distinction between things accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciousness, and
    3. 3 things not accessible to our external senses of sight etc.
    4. 4 Intelligence tells us that there is a collection of all things: the ones accessible to our external senses of sight etc., and the ones not accessible to our external senses of sight etc.
    5. 5 Intelligence tells us that there are things in the collection of all things, namely - things that have a beginning.
    6. 6 Intelligence tells us that things with a beginning owe their existence to things that are without beginning.
    7. 7 Intelligence tells us that the collection of all things exists as a collection, namely, that the collection exists permanently i.e. eternally.
    8. 8 Intelligence tells us that (a) wherefore the collection of existence of all things we can call it simply as existence.
    9. 9 Intelligence tells us that (b) wherefore it is ascertained that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

End of exposition.


Dear everyone, just cite one step to take up with me, one step any step - per one exchange, okay?




originally posted by: Pachomius
MONO






Dear frugal, have we met before?


I seem to get the impression that you are in wonder over the beauty of nature, and that stirs you to sing praise to God.


Now, right at this point of my thread I am in the process to prove that existence is permanent i.e. eternal, and from that step to prove that God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


My launching pad is the task of first getting everyone including myself to concur on what it is to prove something to exist.

For the purpose of this task I distinguish between proving (i) something to exist which we have access to, by our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and the super sense of our consciousness, and (ii) something that we have no access to with our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and our super sense of consciousness.


(i) mode is simple easy and quick unless you are under complete anaesthesia, or in a comatose state.

(ii) mode is quite difficult but not impossible: difficult as the object is not accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and also of course our super sense of consciousness.


It is with mode (ii) that we will encounter even extreme difficulty but as I said it is not impossible, when we factor in the fact that we are classified by animal taxonomists (founder Carl Linnaeus d. 1778) as homo* sapiens i.e. living entity with intelligence, we can and do employ our brain to prove that something exists, notwithstanding that it is not accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and of course our super sense of consciousness.


Would you, dear frugal, give it a try with (ii)?



*Homo in Latin means a human, in Greek it means 'the same", as in homosexuals, i.e. men who do sex with fellow men, how? that's up to your imagination.




posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: spy66

Why was Moses not allowed to enter the promise land?

Was there punishment when Jonah disobeyed God?

Was it God’s will when David sent the husband of the women he lusted after into battle to be killed.

There are countless accounts of people blatantly and willfully disobeying God.

Compared to your one verse out of context.

Yes, people have free will to choose a path. It’s even recorded in the Bible. And to be judged on what they choose.

That doesn’t mean there are no consequences to deal with.




NOT EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE, DONE IN THE BIBLE WAS APPROVED BY GOD. RATHER THE BIBLE TENDS TO BE MORE OF A RECORD OF THE JEWS, HUMANITIES WRONGS DOINGS. UNDENIABLE EXAMPLES OF SOME MAJOR JEWISH PERSONS, LEADERS WHO DISOBEYED GOD IN THE BIBLE
.

mccainvrsobama.wordpress.com...



Then you have God cannot force people to sin. But people have free will that can result in sin and rebellion against god.



Isaiah 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD, “Who execute a plan, but not Mine, And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, In order to add sin to sin;



edit on 24-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 04:50 PM
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MONO




Dear spy66:

Your position that there is no free will, is what I call to be completely speculative or a fiction - better, a fantasy.


It will turn the world of reality upside down.

You ground yourself on the conundrum from the religious idea of enthusiastic fantastic Christians that God is full of omniscience, wherefore He knows who is damned and who saved, etc. etc. etc.


In a court of law there is the defense on insanity, but not no free will with mankind, better if ever you get tried for say murder, just plead the defense of insanity than that there is no free will with mankind.






originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: neutronflux (My one exception from my resolution to not anymore engage in exchange with posters who cite revelation authority -Pachomius)




I have faith that you like to bludgeon people with your home brewed religion. But in reality it looks like you have unfounded opinions about people. Your making claims about individuals and relationships with God that is only God’s privilege to judge.


It does not matter what you have faith in when it it comes to me, It is Jesus who will be the judge. According to scripture...

It is what i have been trying to say all the time. We dont have free will. Non of this is up to us, non of this is up to you. You are just playing your role in what is called life/reality. And there is nothing you can do about it.....

It dosent matter how much you want to be saved, if Jesus have a different verdict...








posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux




Why was Moses not allowed to enter the promise land?


This is the diffarence between the faith of Lord God and God. Moses had no faith in thee God and broke it..... I have mentioned this before about the Jews...
If you dont have faith in God you have faith in someone else or something else..... You can only have one father.

Since you are onto this subject you know this..... You wouldent have asked if you dident knwo the answer.





Was there punishment when Jonah disobeyed God?


Why do you ask questions you already have the answers to...??

Why dont you ask questions you dont have answers to...? Dont you have faith in God..?

I have said it before... You don't have free will when it comes to Gods will or to Gods Plan. Dont you understand what you read...? I have asked you this before...more then once...

By asking this question you dont understand what free will is. You dont have free will if your will is not accepted according to authority. I said in a different poste that the political and social system controlls you. If you do as your free will demands and it is not according to authority you will be punished. Jonah drowned....... I am lauphing,,,, I know you will have a fallow up on this,,,, That is because you dont understand... any of this.


You dont understand that free will is actually restricted. You can not do as you want without a cause/reprercussion...

Jonah learned that the hard way......

The irony is that God new that jonah would repent. So the whale was prepared to save him...............

Only God rules his own creation.....

I wonder how science would describe this event.... They probably could not. But we know that whales don't have a habit of eating humans...
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 07:07 PM
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a reply to: spy66



I have said it before... You don't have free will when it comes to Gods will or to Gods Plan.


Evidently Isaiah and the Holy Bible state otherwise.



Isaiah 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD, “Who execute a plan, but not Mine, And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, In order to add sin to sin;




Sorry. Your flat out proven wrong by the scriptures.



posted on Sep, 24 2020 @ 08:12 PM
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a reply to: spy66

More on Moses



The punishment may seem harsh to us, but, when we look closely at Moses’ actions, we see several mistakes. Most obviously, Moses disobeyed a direct command from God. God had commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock with his staff

www.gotquestions.org...


There’s that word again disobeyed.


More on David.



David also suffers another failure that, to us in the 21st century, may seem strange. He takes a census of the people of Israel. Although this seems like a prudent thing to do, the biblical text tells us that Satan incited David to do this against the advice of David’s general Joab. Furthermore, "God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel" (1 Chronicles 21:6).

David acknowledges his sin in taking a census against God’s will.

www.theologyofwork.org... 1-2/davids-successes-and-failures-as-king-2-samuel-1-24/davids-disobedience-to-god-causes-a-national-pestilence-1-chronicles-211-17



David “ acknowledges his sin in taking a census against God’s will.“


So yes. People are given free will. God will not lead you to sin. But free will can.



James 1:13-15
New International Version
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own(A) evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;(B) and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.(C)

www.biblegateway.com...


edit on 24-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Sep, 25 2020 @ 02:40 AM
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Editing one of my previous comments to make it more clear what I was referring to (I'll bold the edit):

originally posted by: whereislogic
...It's not even an appropiate description of blind faith, which would be more like (if trying to use some of the same phrases): belief in spite of an absence of evidence (but actually better said, in spite of not being aware of evidence, and often not really caring all that much about it, believing something anyway regardless of any evidence; much closer to the definition for credulity).

Credulity definition, willingness to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence; gullibility.

Source: dictionary.com



posted on Sep, 25 2020 @ 12:29 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux

If you think i am craping on you. Than act out your free will. You have it as you claim.

It dosent matter what you do. It wont change the future. It wont change your future.

Your future is set. The only one who dosent know that is You.....


Our History is a stright time line. The singularity is already formed.... And as it evolves reality will also be manifested to us... There is nothing you can do about it.







edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 28 2020 @ 01:00 PM
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Dear every poster here, you all who are into arguing on texts from the Bible and other ancient revelation religious writings, please do it in the board/forum* of
    general off-topic chitchat forums > Religion, Faith, And Theology


Otherwise you are off-topic in my thread.

My thread on "Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not" is listed in the board/forum* of
    mysterious subjects forums > Philosophy and Metaphysics


So, as you want to talk on free will or no free will with mankind, just ground yourselves on philosophy, metaphysics.

That is what I am grounding myself on with my thread in re God exists or not, namely, on philosophy, metaphysics.


Please be guided accordingly.



*See www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Sep, 28 2020 @ 01:12 PM
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MONO




This is not a new post but the same one as in the quote below in Annex, except that I put the step by step exposition to render them easier to read, on how things beyond our access are in existence, and that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.


originally posted by Pachomius


[ . . . . ]


I was into my discourse on what it is to prove that some things exist permanently or eternally, and I have reached the (ii) step - see quote below.

Now I will resume and continue my discourse, on (ii), how to prove that things beyond our access by our external senses of sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciously, namely - that mankind can prove to exist and that ultimately existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

Here are my steps to expound on how mankind can and does prove the existence of things beyond our access by sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciousness, AND that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

    1. 1 Mankind has a mind that is endowed with intelligence.

    2. 2 Intelligence tells us that there is a distinction between things accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciousness, and

    3. 3 things not accessible to our external senses of sight etc.

    4. 4 Intelligence tells us that there is a collection of all things: the ones accessible to our external senses of sight etc., and the ones not accessible to our external senses of sight etc.

    5. 5 Intelligence tells us that there are things in the collection of all things, namely - things that have a beginning.

    6. 6 Intelligence tells us that things with a beginning owe their existence to things that are without beginning.

    7. 7 Intelligence tells us that the collection of all things exists as a collection, namely, that the collection exists permanently i.e. eternally.

    8. 8 Intelligence tells us that (a) wherefore the collection of existence of all things we can call it simply as existence.

    9. 9 Intelligence tells us that (b) wherefore it is ascertained that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

End of exposition.


Dear everyone, just cite one step to take up with me, one step any step - per one exchange, okay?


[ . . . . ]





Annex [ quote]

posted on Sep, 25 2020 @ 05:53 AM by Pachomius
www.abovetopsecret.com...
- - - - - - - - - - - -

MONO



Dear readers and posters here, at this point in time I will transcend from exchange of thoughts on what is faith, and also skip exchange with posters who cite revelation authority like from the Bible.

I was into my discourse on what it is to prove that some things exist permanently or eternally, and I have reached the (ii) step - see quote below.

Now I will resume and continue my discourse, on (ii), how to prove that things beyond our access by our external senses of sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciously, namely - that mankind can prove to exist and that ultimately existence is permanent i.e. eternal.

Here are my steps to expound on how mankind can and does prove the existence of things beyond our access by sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciousness, AND that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.


1 Mankind has a mind that is endowed with intelligence.
2 Intelligence tells us that there is a distinction between things accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste smell, and the super sense of consciousness, and
3 things not accessible to our external senses of sight etc.
4 Intelligence tells us that there is a collection of all things: the ones accessible to our external senses of sight etc., and the ones not accessible to our external senses of sight etc.
5 Intelligence tells us that there are things in the collection of all things, namely - things that have a beginning.
6 Intelligence tells us that things with a beginning owe their existence to things that are without beginning.
7 Intelligence tells us that the collection of all things exists as a collection, namely, that the collection exists permanently i.e. eternally.
8 Intelligence tells us that (a) wherefore the collection of existence of all things we can call it simply as existence.
9 Intelligence tells us that (b) wherefore it is ascertained that existence is permanent i.e. eternal.


End of exposition.


Dear everyone, just cite one step to take up with me, one step any step - per one exchange, okay?




    originally posted by: Pachomius
    MONO






    Dear frugal, have we met before?


    I seem to get the impression that you are in wonder over the beauty of nature, and that stirs you to sing praise to God.


    Now, right at this point of my thread I am in the process to prove that existence is permanent i.e. eternal, and from that step to prove that God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


    My launching pad is the task of first getting everyone including myself to concur on what it is to prove something to exist.

    For the purpose of this task I distinguish between proving (i) something to exist which we have access to, by our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and the super sense of our consciousness, and (ii) something that we have no access to with our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and our super sense of consciousness.


    (i) mode is simple easy and quick unless you are under complete anaesthesia, or in a comatose state.

    (ii) mode is quite difficult but not impossible: difficult as the object is not accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and also of course our super sense of consciousness.


    It is with mode (ii) that we will encounter even extreme difficulty but as I said it is not impossible, when we factor in the fact that we are classified by animal taxonomists (founder Carl Linnaeus d. 1778) as homo* sapiens i.e. living entity with intelligence, we can and do employ our brain to prove that something exists, notwithstanding that it is not accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and of course our super sense of consciousness.


    Would you, dear frugal, give it a try with (ii)?




*Homo in Latin means a human, in Greek it means 'the same", as in homosexuals, i.e. men who do sex with fellow men, how? that's up to your imagination.
[ /quote]



posted on Sep, 28 2020 @ 02:07 PM
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MONO




On the basis of my concept of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, this thought is purely on philosophy, and nothing to do with religion.

The God of philosophy has nothing to do with morality or immorality, and wherefore nothing to do with 'hell' or 'heaven', or 'karma': and therefore nothing to do with free will by the exercise of which man will be rewarded or punished.

Free will in the context of reward or punishment on man is actually in philosophy (prescinding from religion) a constructive or un-constructive preferred action undertaken by by man, grounded on his knowledge of the consequences of His preferred and thus executed action.

His knowledge of consequences could be constructive as he prefers them to be, or in fact the consequences turn out to be un-constructive not only for himself - but also could be un-constructive to society.

And what is the role of society in regard to his undertaking an action that is in fact turning out to be un-constructive to society?

Society will administer pain on him, like torture or imprisonment, and even death, to teach him or/and generally all members of society: to always think carefully: on whether a man's preferred action could be un-constructive to society, even as society has enacted laws prohibiting explicitly determined actions.



posted on Sep, 28 2020 @ 02:43 PM
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a reply to: Pachomius

Threads dead, let it go.



posted on Sep, 28 2020 @ 08:32 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

Threads dead, let it go.


When the truth has been served.



posted on Sep, 29 2020 @ 03:29 PM
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MONO




Well, dear readers and posters here, now I am facing only Neutron and Spy66.

It seems that all posters who used to here wax so eloquently profuse with words, they are now depleted of words, and thus silent completely, why?

The way I see it, it is because they have nothing inside their mind except what they read of other people's writings, for example, one Pthena: he is very good at talking about who said what, but never about anything at all which he has himself thought out with his very own mind.

And with Neutron and Spy66, these two are if I may use the word, enslaved, enslaved to the Bible, which alas they also disagree on how to understand texts in the Bible.


So, addressing Pthena and Neutron and Spy66:

Supposing you three just divest yourselves of your contents which are from your readings of other people's contents, and just think honestly intelligently and productively with your very own personally arrived at stock knowledge and information, and now see if you have something to teach me in regard to my thoughts below reproduced about what is free will?

Dear readers and posters, they I fear will now as they have already depleted their contents borrowed from other people's contents, they will I fear keep away - sad very sad!






originally posted by: Pachomius
MONO




On the basis of my concept of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, this thought is purely on philosophy, and nothing to do with religion.

The God of philosophy has nothing to do with morality or immorality, and wherefore nothing to do with 'hell' or 'heaven', or 'karma': and therefore nothing to do with free will by the exercise of which man will be rewarded or punished.

Free will in the context of reward or punishment on man is actually in philosophy (prescinding from religion) a constructive or un-constructive preferred action undertaken by by man, grounded on his knowledge of the consequences of His preferred and thus executed action.

His knowledge of consequences could be constructive as he prefers them to be, or in fact the consequences turn out to be un-constructive not only for himself - but also could be un-constructive to society.

And what is the role of society in regard to his undertaking an action that is in fact turning out to be un-constructive to society?

Society will administer pain on him, like torture or imprisonment, and even death, to teach him or/and generally all members of society: to always think carefully: on whether a man's preferred action could be un-constructive to society, even as society has enacted laws prohibiting explicitly determined actions.





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